In this episode of our "Game Changers" podcast, host Sophie Brazell-Ng explores the power of creativity at work with two distinguished guests — Sarah Partridge, founder and director of The Change Academy, and Rob Cannon, a coach, consultant, and author of ‘Aha! A User’s Guide To Creativity’.
This episode seeks to unravel the essence of creativity within the workplace and its profound impact on business resilience and innovation. The conversation begins with a deep exploration of the fundamental definitions of creativity, juxtaposed with innovation, highlighting how creativity sparks novel ideas while innovation transforms these ideas into reality. Sarah and Rob stress the increasing importance of fostering a creative workplace culture, especially in the volatile and uncertain modern business environment, citing the need for resilience and adaptability.
Listeners are also introduced to practical challenges and strategies for harnessing creativity at work. The guests emphasise the role of leaders in modelling creative behaviours, establishing psychological safety, and encouraging experimentation to cultivate a vibrant creative culture. Additionally, the dialogue touches on the contemporary relevance of creativity in the context of generative AI, discussing its potential to both constrain and elevate human creativity.
This insightful episode concludes with key takeaways to inspire and empower listeners to embrace their innate creative capacities and implement practices that promote creativity and innovation in their professional lives.
Listen here or read on for an edited transcript.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Game Changers.
Today, I'm really excited to bring back one of our regulars, Sarah, and introduce you all to Rob, for a great conversation about exploring the power of creativity at work. I'm really, really excited for this one and I'm really thankful to Sarah for suggesting this off the back of a couple of the other episodes that we've recorded. If you haven't listened to those before, I recommend to have a look through the catalog on those.
But before we kick off and start asking loads of questions, I would love to have a quick introduction from my guests. So Rob, would you like to introduce yourself?
Rob Cannon: Yeah, absolutely. Hi. Hi. Hi. Thank you for having me today.
So yeah, my name is Rob Cannon. These days I would call myself, I guess a coach, a consultant, an educator, but I've also spent most of my career in the music industry one way or another, starting at major record labels and then moving into educational space and an organisational psychology space. I do a lot of work with people, teams around creativity, you know, other organisational training kind of stuff. So yeah, creativity is a lot of fun to talk about. So I'm looking forward to being here today and talking to you guys.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing and welcome, Rob. I know it's the first time we've met as well today, so I'm really excited to learn lots from you and everything about you. Sarah, do you wanna introduce yourself as well?
Sarah Partridge: I will indeed. Hello, hello. Lovely to be back here. I do have to say though, Rob didn't mention in his introduction that he's actually written a book about creativity, so he's kind of hiding his light a little bit. So yeah, he's written a book about it, so he's very much an expert.
I'm Sarah Partridge. I'm founder and director of the Change Academy. The Change Academy is a consultancy working with businesses of all shapes and sizes, primarily in the leadership development space, but also in the strategy space as well. So my background is actually creative industries as well. I spent nearly 20 years working in major record companies and that's actually where I met Mr. Cannon was when we worked at Sony Music in Australia. So yeah, we've known each other a long time. We share a similar background, and this is one of our favorite topics.
Rob Cannon: Indeed, we've spent many an evening over a beverage or two talking about this kind of stuff.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And for people listening and obviously can't see, both Rob and Sarah have a musical background, so Sarah's got a ton of guitars behind her. Rob's got some records. Sadly, I have nothing quite so impressive and I have not worked in the music industry, but hello to everybody who's listening. My name's Sophie Brazell-Ng, I am one of the principal consultants at Clarasys specializing in everything to do with people and change. So bringing you the Change Makers podcast, talking about all the topics that I love, and interesting, I have the pleasure of talking to a number of guests as we've got today.
So, as I said, gonna kick us off. We're exploring the power of creativity at work. I feel like this is gonna be a huge and very exciting topic, so let's see where we go. But first and foremost, as we always do, I'm gonna ask for some definitions. And Rob, given that you have written a book on creativity, I'm gonna ask you, what is creativity?
What is creativity?
Rob Cannon: Well, Sophie, that's a very good question. I have to say, you know, when you go down that rabbit hole of writing a book on this kind of subject, you start thinking, okay, I'm gonna figure this out, and you open a massive Pandora's box and it's just kind of chaotic in there, basically.
So creativity, really, I mean, it's a multifaceted concept, so you know, it's a word we apply to so many different things in life, whether it's an advertising campaign, whether it's an art form, whether it's the process of product development, scientific theory. Sometimes even just, you know, the novel approaches we use in our everyday lives. So problem pops up, we figure out a clever way and a new way to solve it. Or you might call it a life hack. You know, all these things involve creativity, but in pretty different ways.
So I guess the simple way of kind of tying it all together to define creativity is it's basically the generation of an idea that is new, novel. The sort of novelty aspect of it is important, but also that it's appropriate or it's got some kind of value to it. So that could be because it solves a particular problem. It could be, you know, in the case of art, it could be that it has some sort of aesthetic value, which of course is a bit of a subjective kind of perspective.
And I suppose that's the big caveat to that definition of kind of newness and value appropriateness is that what we define as new is massively subjective, could be new to me. And I think, wow, that's amazing. And you know, you guys have seen it a thousand times before. And also what we value is totally subjective and art is such a great example of that. What somebody thinks is amazing, someone else thinks is rubbish. So that's a totally different rabbit hole to go down. But basically keeping things simple, it's new and it's got value one way or another. And that's creative.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And Sarah, anything you wanna add to that?
Sarah Partridge: I mean I think I'd just echo Rob's sentiment in that I think when people think of creativity, they think of it as this kind of, I don't know, untapped superpower that you have to have to be creative and you think of famous artists and great musicians, and actually creativity doesn't need to be any of that. It's something that we all have and we all have access to, and it can be as simple as rob said, solving a problem or you know, finding an efficiency in a process. I mean, how boring does that sound? But that's creativity, right?
So it's often not as grand and as untouchable as people feel it is. So I think part of the conversation we're having should be a little bit about busting the myth of creativity, right? The enigma of creativity. Because I think, you know, Rob and I firmly believe that. Everybody has the capacity to be creative. Every single human being on the planet has the capacity to be creative, given the right conditions to do so.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. Okay. There's so much that I wanna dive into there. I love how you also said that you can be creative at looking in inefficiencies at processes, and that makes me feel a lot better about myself there 'cause I definitely do get a kick when I find my day to day work, I was like, I might not be a creative individual.
Well, it turns out I actually might be. I just didn't know it.
Rob, do you think there's a difference between creativity and innovation?
The difference between creativity and innovation
Rob Cannon: Yeah, that's another good question because I think these terms are frequently used and understood kind of interchangeably to sort of refer to the creative process in some particular form.
My personal take on it, and people can totally feel free to disagree with me on this, but my sort of way of viewing it is a kind of a continuum, but when we're talking about creativity, I think we're sort of talking more about that process of conceptualizing the idea, the novel, the valuable idea, coming up with that, like, Hey, here's a great idea that's, uh, that's completely new.
And then innovation is kind of a more broad process of like having that idea and then making that idea a reality. So, you know, going through the iteration process of refining that idea until you make it something that's actually, you know, a practical and viable solution. And ultimately, I suppose, introducing it to the world, you know? And that obviously brings a ton of challenges with it. And really I think that innovation process, it's a successful execution of a creative idea and it's introduction to the world. It introduces change, but also requires the innovator to basically convince people of the value of this change. Sometimes that might be really obvious, but a lot of times you're going to come up against resistance from people who are profiting from the old way of doing things, or they just don't get it, or whatever. So that's kind of how I view that sort of continuum from creativity and the creative idea through to innovation and that process of really refining and executing the creative idea.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I really like that as a set of definitions, and correct me if I've understood wrong, that the creativity is that spark, the innovation is bringing that spark into reality and making it actually happen.
Rob Cannon: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good way of looking at it. Exactly.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. And I guess for, from a work context, which I'm gonna start to, to move it on in, into the world of business and the world of work, that is so important that you create that space, right? That space for creativity. You get those sparks, but then you can also then move those forwards and I, I also presume, build on them as well and find that an exciting space to do that is obviously where all the, all the best ideas gonna come from.
Rob Cannon: Right. I mean, you think of like product development. If you see certain products that have become ubiquitous in our lives, even if you were to see the first kind of cobbled together like expression of the idea, it would probably look quite different from what we've come to know, you know, as users of that product. And it's that iteration process again. Well, here's an idea and I've gotta figure out actually how to make it work practically and viably. That's part of the innovation process. So, and, and super important of course for actually putting that idea out effectively into the world.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. So I'm gonna move us on into a couple of practical questions and start thinking how this relates to us in the world of work and how can we become a bit more creative and how we think about work as well.
Might seem like a bit of an obvious question, but why is creativity important for us in the workplace?
Why creativity is important in the workplace?
Rob Cannon: Sarah, do you wanna talk on that?
Sarah Partridge: It's so pertinent at the moment. I mean, I think it's, it's always been important, but, things are pretty chaotic out there right now. I think Sophie, in previous podcasts we've talked about this concept of vuca. Right, the VUCA environment, volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity, and even if we think about what's happening in the world right now, sort of on a macro level, right? Wars, politics, economics, there's just, there is so much happening that is impacting business on a day-to-day basis.
And the rules and processes of today may not work tomorrow because the change is constant. The change is rapid. The change is exponential. It's a really, really tough environment for businesses to operate in. And because of that reason, we need to harness ideas in business more than ever before, right? To kind of challenge paradigms, challenge the way that things have always been done and imagine a future that you know, is more fit for purpose to adapt and kind of ride and weather the storm, if that makes any sense.
It's about business resilience. If a business wants to be resilient and to thrive into the future, I would say that creativity is a must have, right? It's a must have skill in the workforce. It's a must have part of any culture for a business to thrive that they can foster creative thinking, ideation, critical thinking, all of those things that are gonna help businesses to adapt and change as the external environment continues to be volatile 'cause we just dunno what's around the corner, unfortunately.
Rob Cannon: There's a great stat, I think that's really good to illustrate what you're talking about, which is that the s and p 500, which you know, is an index that ranks the top 500 companies by size and the stats, it's kind of like rough statistics, but it basically says that in the early sixties, 1960, your average company stayed on that s and p 500 listing. So one of the top 500 companies for an average of like 55 years. So if you've ever established, you're on that ranking, you're gonna stay there. But in 2017, that timeframe had dropped to 18 years. So that rate of change, the VUCA kind of conditions you're talking about, that's spread out so much that if you are not changing, you know, if you're not disrupting, you're being disrupted.
You look at like Blockbuster versus Netflix, they were both essentially in the same business, you know, getting DVDs out to people in a rental, a rental situation, and one managed to think creatively and pivot to a completely different way of visualizing that concept and one didn't, and very different fortunes.
Challenges in harnessing creativity at work
Sophie Brazell-Ng: A lot of people talk about, you know, culture's really important and it's a, it's got a very big place in the zeitgeist right now, but we're also talking about creativity as something that makes a business resilient as something that makes it a differentiator. Do you see creativity being limited at work?
Are we not making the best advantage of being able to be creative and, and if yes. Why. Have I asked a huge question?
Sarah Partridge: Yeah. I mean, you know, this is a massive problem I think for businesses at the moment. I don't think I've come across an organisation that's doing much creative thinking at all. And the reason why is, you know, a lot of businesses have got a lot of financial pressure. There's a reduction in resource in terms of, you know, feet on the ground. People are expected to do more with less. As a result of that, there's not much bandwidth to do anything other than be reactive and firefight the day-to-day tasks and what's needed to be done. So I think even though leaders particularly recognise the need to slow down, think strategically, think about the future, come up with novel ideas, be creative, you know, they're finding it very difficult to find the bandwidth to do that. Right?
And so we almost need to find a way to create a mindset that allows them to do both. Allows them to still react to the problems and the complexities of every day, but at the same time, also have strategic foresight and creativity and challenge assumptions and breakdown paradigms.
And it's difficult because we're asking them to do more, right? We're asking them to do more than they're already doing.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And they're already firefighting and trying to do their best in the environment they are.
Sarah Partridge: Totally, it's not, it's not an easy thing to do. And that's just one blocker to creativity.
I mean there there's other things that can really stifle the ability to be creative. Psychological safety is another one, Sophie. And obviously we've done a podcast on that very topic, but if people don't feel psychologically safe to share ideas because they're scared that they're gonna get laughed at, or people are gonna say, that's a stupid idea, or it's just gonna fall on deaf ears.
And then they're not gonna speak about the idea, they're not gonna be in that mindset set to do that. So there's lots of blockers, unfortunately in modern organisations.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Also, you know, if people are laughing, you're not signaling the right ideas to others who might come up with a small, tiny idea that actually has significant opportunities.
You're not encouraging that way of thinking. You are almost stifling it. I think as you said before, it's even had the opportunity to grow. Rob, anything from you on this?
Rob Cannon: Yeah, I was just gonna say there's a great thing that Hewlett Packard used to do, the technology company, computer software and that kind of thing.
They used to have an annual award. I think it was annual, but they used to have an award for the person that succeeded despite the company. And it's kind of a hat to exactly what Sarah is talking about which is so much of the way that companies, corporations, organisations run in our culture, in our society, it's kind of like almost diametrically opposed to doing anything creative. So of course, you know, this is a company that thrives on creative ideas and yet has so many systems and structures that thwart it. And yet when somebody does, despite all these kind of barriers, managed to come up with something that then is, you know, a great creative idea, tick your product, that's gonna do really well for them, they're like despite our best efforts as a corporation, you actually succeeded in being creative. Little things like that which are really interesting is recognition of like, yeah, we're a corporation and we are kind of set up in a way that's gonna really be problematic. But hey, well done anyway.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: It's a bit sad, but it's an interesting way of thinking about it. Rob, do you have any other examples of where creativity has really moved an industry, a business, or a product forward in, in surprising ways.
Rob Cannon: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think Sarah was sort of talking about a lot of the ways that organisations actually foster creativity and creative cultures, which are the sort of things that lead to these great breakthrough ideas, in the day to day management and structures and the rest of it, which don't seem like these big, crazy things, but there are some really interesting things that people have explicitly done organisationally to foster creativity. We may talk about this at some point today, but Sarah and I have talked a lot about Pixar, they're such a great example of a company who's leadership really lent into fostering a creative culture and being really explicit about certain ways of managing to do that. And actually the founder and longtime leader of Pixar, a guy called Ed Catmore, wrote a really good book called Creativity Ink about it. But there's a great thing that allegedly, this is a Steve Jobs idea, 'cause of course he was involved in Pixar for a long time and when they were building a new Pixar office Steve Jobs decided we're gonna have the bathrooms right in the middle of the building, and initially he just wanted one set of bathrooms for the entire building. Of course, that wasn't really feasible, but the concept was of course, is that you've got all these different teams and people in their day-to-day are really just sort of interacting with their team members. And there's no cross-fertilisation of like somebody in marketing talking to someone in finance with someone in product development, talking to someone in hr. Where you get that cross-fertilisation of like completely different perspectives that could lead to a new idea. And of course the theory is, hey, everyone's gotta go to the bathroom. So as people from all parts of the bathroom, hopefully they're running into each other and having these water cooler conversations. It could just be the spark for like, oh hey, there's a cool idea. So something like that, you know, design of your environment explicitly, you know, engineered to sort of foster creative outcomes is a really interesting thing to consider.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah. I like how you use the word spark as well, because I know that they've done, or Pixar have done a couple of those sparks actually talking specifically about how they've designed their offices on Disney actually, so you can have a look at that as well.
I kind of wanna dive into that topic a little bit more about creating a creative culture.
Creating a creative culture at work
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Are there any things that you would recommend that companies can implement to start moving them forwards in that dial? And I'm also very conscious that we're much more now in a hybrid world where teams might be more distributed, there might not be the opportunity for natural crossover in that single bathroom example that you've just given us.
Are there any tips or ideas that you could share to help people foster a creative culture?
Rob Cannon: I'd say there's certain principles and how you execute those principles is really an individual thing, depending on how you're interacting, what your sort of team setup is, all that kind of stuff. But I think one important thing at the outset, just to say, which ties back to what we've been talking about earlier, is that when we talk about creativity in a sort of theoretical sense, in a personal sense, you know, one of the big tenets for example, is like, Hey, don't be afraid of failure, blah, blah, blah. When you translate it into a practical business setting, of course, well, failure can have catastrophic consequences if you kind of like bet the farm on on some crazy new idea and it doesn't work out and you destroy the company. So there's ways in which you have to temper these creative ideals. And how you do that is kind of, I think, really critical to creating that creative culture. And I think, you know, the failure thing is quite interesting 'cause of course that is the thing that gets really kind of stigmatised at work. It's just like, you can't screw up, you can't fail you, you know, when Sarah and I were working in record labels, you know, you put an album out or an artist you're working with puts an album out and you spent all this time and obviously money promoting it and setting it up and getting all the rest of it. And then you kind of like hold your breath and hope that people are gonna stream it, buy it, whatever. And if they don't, it's like the world has ended. And how do you still allow people to experiment? You know, I think two ways. Of course you find out ways of having experiments and taking risks that aren't going to completely bankrupt the company.
And the other thing is, you know, concept, again, this comes back to Ed at Pixel. He used to say that senior management's task is not to prevent risk, but it's to build the capacity to recover when you know mistakes do happen. It's that kind of perspective on how do we allow these principles that kind of underpin creativity that normally get crushed to happen whilst still functioning within the bigger picture of a company being successful. Then things like communication. Everyone should be able to communicate with everyone else. Fostering things like not just open communication, but even, you know, it like when people stand up and say well I actually disagree with that and here's wy. That's the sort of thing again, that kind of can spark some ideas.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Knowing how to disagree well, so you don't feel like you, your idea's being quashed in actual fact it's like, no, but hey, I've got another thing that can evolve it. I can see where you're going. It's having a, a, a really great conversation around that. That you want to foster.
Rob Cannon: Exactly. So I guess the question really is just like what are the conditions that lead to creativity and some of the stuff we've talked about and then particularly from a managerial perspective, what can I really do on an individual level for the people that I'm working with and a sort of more companywide level to just allow those things to happen without it obviously majorly jeopardizing the business.
Sarah Partridge: You were talking about being able to come up with ideas that if they go wrong then it won't jeopardise the business or it will jeopardise the business. And some of the organisations that I've been working with are working with a principle called the Waterline. And this is really interesting. This has come from Gore actually. So the company Gore that produced Goretex, right? They're really forward thinking when it comes to organisational culture and leadership. And we use them as an example in lots of different discussions. But they've created this principle called the Waterline Principle, and basically imagine a boat in the sea, right? If you make a decision or come up with an idea that goes wrong, if it blows a hole in the side of the boat above the waterline, then it's okay, right?
Because you can just patch the hole and kind of carry on sailing. But if you blow a hole in the boat below the waterline. Then the boat might sink and it could be catastrophic. So we talk about this idea of where's the waterline, right? So what are the ideas, what are the decisions that can be made that will sit above the waterline? So, okay, you might fail. It might go wrong, but it's not gonna have catastrophic outcomes. And what are those things that you just don't meddle with? Because if you do and it goes wrong, you're gonna sink the ship. And so there's, there's a kind of this idea of, of everyone being really clear on what the waterline is for their team, right, for their department, and it just creates a sense of freedom and empowerment and agility to kind of move forward with new ideas, with process improvements with new projects.
As long as they're above the waterline, you don't need to get 75 layers of sign off. Ask your manager who has to ask their manager,
Sophie Brazell-Ng: 75 layers sounds not very many to me. You know?
Sarah Partridge: You know what I mean though, right? So it's like some businesses you have to go through huge processes just to innovate on one tiny thing. And actually if you can kind of have some sort of waterline principle where everyone's really clear about what they can and can't do in terms of sinking the ship or not. It just allows that freedom to be creative and to make decisions quickly in the moment, which we really need because of what we were talking about before in terms of the environment we're operating in.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, I really like that idea of the waterline. It makes me think of the, I think it's the Buurtzorg example as well, where they're revolutionizing healthcare in the Netherlands, so they're allowing healthcare teams the ability to deliver healthcare in a way that they're seeing that needs to be done on the ground.
They're not going through tons of layers of approval in order to do that. They're giving that flexibility, but up to a certain point. And that's completely revolutionised the healthcare system over there.
Sarah Partridge: It's exactly that, exactly that.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I'm really interested in asking about leadership or the role of managers within that to foster that thinking and allow that to happen. I know, Sarah, you are very much in that world, but what is the role of a leader in, I guess, saying that it's okay to experiment below the waterline, but also establishing where that is?
Role of leadership in fostering creativity
Sarah Partridge: Absolutely. Look, I think the leader has a huge role to play in that. And I think firstly like role modeling creative behavior, right? So being curious, asking questions, sharing crazy ideas, sharing half-formed ideas that might not be perfect, right? And setting that tone within the team to say, Hey, you know being creative is fun. We can do this. It's okay. And also like looking for opportunity in challenges and problems, so you know, okay, we've got a challenge, we've got a problem. Let's get creative. How can we solve this in a unique or novel way? Right? And then obviously, of course, like praising the effort when people come to you with something that is novel or new or creative, to show that you really value experimentation. And even if it does fail kind of saying, great, you had a go. What have you learned from that? What can we take from that? How would we do it differently next time?
So I think that there's a huge role for the leader here to foster creativity and even if the wider culture of the organisation is not quite there, you know, I would say to any individual leader listening to this, what can you do in your team? Because every team has a micro culture, right? You create the culture that your people are working in. I mean, obviously it's not just created by the leader, of course it's co-created by the people in the team, but the leader has obviously quite a big impact on how that looks. So I think there are things that leaders can do to really support creativity.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I love that I've circled on my piece of paper, value experimentation. I quite like that when you delivered that there, Rob, anything to add on that topic?
Rob Cannon: No, I think that's great. I mean, I would just say that, I know Sarah talks a lot about this, but the concept of psychological safety and, you know, if you're leading a team, creating that psychological safety is a really key step then in allowing people to voice ideas no matter how crazy they may seem. Because effectively the crazier the better when you're trying to be creative. It makes it safe for people to communicate at all kind of levels, rather than just being this vertical where you can only talk to somebody three tiers above you by going through the various bosses, making it safe to share information rather than withholding information, 'cause that's your kind of source of power and bargaining within an organisation. And making it safe to give really clear feedback as well. You know, you can't advance with ideas and in a particular, the iteration process we were talking about earlier in innovation, you need to critically look at what's going on and that honest feedback is critical, and so you need to make it safe to be able to voice those concerns. Explore, discuss, and so on. So the leader's role in creating that and maintaining that psychological safety is critical.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I'm gonna take us on a slightly different tangent, and I didn't prep you guys for this, so apologies in advance if I'm really putting you on the spot right now. But obviously everybody's talking about Gen AI.
What do you think the role of creativity is in the world of Gen AI that we are now in where it's so disruptive, we don't know how to use it. We need to challenge our mental models. What do you think the value of creativity is in that environment?
The impact of AI on creativity
Rob Cannon: Mm, very interesting question. Yeah. AI is developing its own kind of capacities at such a rate, and I mean, it's fascinating to hear AI experts say that there are ways in which they don't quite understand now how the AI model works. Like I heard somebody, an AI expert say, basically, if you ask AI to do something for you and you tell 'em this is a life or death scenario, like, I'm literally gonna lose my job and be out the street destitute if these ideas don't work, then apparently the quality of ideas they come up with is better.
I think, you know, there's still a way therefore the quality of input leads to the quality of output or the direction that the output takes. You know, how you frame a question, like classic example I always give is like organizing a celebration party versus organizing a celebration event. And we can think of them really as the same thing, but actually if you say event could be multiple different things. So thinking about what you're asking AI to do is gonna lead to some of those outcomes.
Suppose the second thing is, and, again this comes to an idea is all well and good, but how do you actually make it valuable and how, and of course, the human aspect of that, you know, and ultimately I suppose AI can be good enough to really understand human emotion and all the rest of it, but it's all well and good putting something out there, but it's gonna fail if you don't take into account what's going on at a social level, a cultural level, a human level, and all that kind of stuff. Those are certainly a couple of things that come to mind.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah, I mean, I'd agree with you. I think that, in terms of what we need in our people moving forward, I think creativity is one of those skills that AI won't be able to fully replicate. I think that the creative output from AI is already there, creating images, you know, creative writing and so on, right? Even music, right? So we've got AI producing music, which is just all sorts of terrifying, and it's a big debate in the music industry right now. But the one thing that AI can't do is tap into intuition and that kind of gut feeling, which is a big part of creativity. So like often with creativity, your experiences in your life would lead to like that kind of flash of insight that leads to a massive breakthrough, whether you are an artist, whether you are a business person, whether you are a musician, whatever it might be, you know, it's that intuition. It's that felt sense that leads to creative insights more often than not. And so without that, is AI ever going to match the human brain in terms of creative output?
And I think the other thing is as well, like Rob said, that AI lacks that deep understanding of cultural nuance, right? And all of the things that are happening in the external environment that will kind of create relevance for ideas. So yeah, I mean it's a really interesting question. It's like I don't think anyone really knows where we are going. And obviously with things becoming more and more rapid, who knows, 10 years from now. I mean, I wasn't using AI at all two years ago, and now I probably use Chat GpT in one form or another every single day. And that has been a major change to the way I work in a very short space of time. And I think about the capability and the functionality and how quickly it's grown. And so I think 10 years from now, what capability is Gen AI gonna have? Like it blows my mind a little bit. It's a scary thought, right.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I think the thing that I find really interesting about it is, as you rightly pointed out this, a lot of people are saying that Gen AI is going to squash creativity, but then there's also the other lens that it can unleash creativity as well.
I know a lot in the conversations that we're having with some of our clients, is about using Gen AI for creative problem solving. So, similar to a lot of what we've been talking about, thinking about things in a different way. What is that idea, that spark that you can then use to innovate with? And we've seen really great responses from people that we've run workshops with who are, okay, how do I adopt a new Gen AI tool? Lots of people are starting and saying, okay, well you can go and use it on the work that you've got today. Well, that only gets you so far. Whereas actually we've been taking quite a lot of groups out. We've been providing them with problems that they have to go and solve using the Gen AI tools, but those problems that we've given them have actually been outside of the work context. So they've learned how to use the tool in a creative way to solve problems that aren't related to what they do in their day-to-day jobs, which gives them the psychological safety to go and experiment and not be worried that they might out their own jobs or their own use or that they might lose their jobs and they found creative ways or different approaches on how to tackle a task, then they've then actually then utilised in their day-to-day jobs afterwards. So it's all a bit of a balance, isn't it?
Sarah Partridge: It is. And do you know what though? The reason I use AI is because I run a business. So I'm working on my own a lot. Like if I'm designing a leadership program or something, I need a thinking partner. Right, and Ai, that's such a good example of how, yeah, yeah. AI is my thinking partner. So I'll kind of like bounce ideas around, oh, but that's not quite right. What about this? Give me more of that. Let's think about it this way. And it's just having that other person in inverted commas to have a conversation with, to spark my creativity. So, absolutely, you know, I'm using it to aid my own creative thinking.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: That's really powerful because I don't think everyone is thinking in that way. I think a lot of people, as you said, especially in the arts industries are, you know, it's gonna squash creativity, but actually can it help us be more creative or help those who don't find it as natural and as easy to do to become more creative?
Rob Cannon: Yeah, I, I think, just quickly, so, you know, creativity is, as we said right at the outset, I think Sarah said this, you know, it's, it's an innate human capacity. So our capacity to be creative is not necessarily gonna go away. I mean, I think you find it, it feels easier to sort of generate creative ideas the more you do it. So it's a kinda like a muscle that you exercise and it gets stronger. But exactly to the points Sarah was making, we will find ways to use and collaborate with and work with AI as a creative tool or in a creative collaboration or something like, you know, I mean, I suppose one of the things about creativity is we don't quite know what it's gonna be because it is novel. But as humans, fundamentally, we will continue to have a capacity for creativity. And so I think that there are gonna be ways that we will continue to, obviously solve our problems, whether it's on a micro individual in the moment level or a macro kind of like cultural, global level from a sort of human point of view. Us out, AI becomes this all powerful tool that we can work with.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I think that was a really great discussion and sorry to spring that on you guys, but I think that was one that came up when I was sat listening to what we're talking about today. I thought actually I'd, I'd like to know what our, our thoughts are on this.
Sarah, this might be a bit more of a question for you, but something that Rob just said there is that creativity is an innate human capability. What does it feel like if we are not able to express our creativity and express our creativity at work?
Sarah Partridge: I mean, look, of course, I can only talk from my own self experience. Creativity is one of my top five values. If I can't express my creativity, and actually I have been in a role where it's been very difficult for me to express my creativity. It, it feels like you are being slowly strangled, you know? And obviously I'm someone that is naturally drawn to creativity, but I think that everybody has the ability to be creative. And if there isn't an environment where people can come up with ideas and then turn those ideas into innovation in the way that Rob was describing before, and then see the impact that that's having in making change however small, you know, I think that's really difficult. I think people feel stagnated. They feel like, you know, they don't have that deeper why, that deeper purpose. I think it actually comes back to some pretty deep stuff for people, because if they're not coming up with new ways of doing things, it can feel really disempowering in a way I think.
I think there's probably, like you might see some cultures where there's not a lot of creativity going on. There's probably a lack of engagement. The wellbeing levels probably not great. There's not that buzz about it. Right. You know, you go into some offices and there's a buzz and there's excitement.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I was about to just say that. Yeah. Probably. You can probably feel it in the air, right?
Sarah Partridge: You can. You can feel it. And there's that like excitement and people are ideas. Everyone's chatting and it's just like the energy is high, right? It just feels good. And I think that is based on, you know, the ability to be creative and to come up with ideas and to just shoot the beep a little bit. Sorry to swear.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Rob, anything from you on that point?
Rob Cannon: No, I think really well put. Expressing our creativity is, since it's innate, it is an expression of ourselves. It's a really vital form of self-expression. And if we're not able to do that, it's gonna obviously have negative effects. I think both individually and as a culture. Quite apart from the fact that you are basically impeding your capacity to solve problems, whether that's your own personal situation or whether that's a company's, you know, ability to disrupt, ideate, and continue to progress.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I really like that lack of a creative environment is impeding the capacity for you to solve problems.
I think that's really powerful and that's a really key takeaway from this for me.
Well, on the topic of key takeaways, I'm sadly gonna have to start wrapping us up. My last two questions to you both and I think, Robert, I'll start with you. What is your key takeaway from this discussion that we've had today?
And for somebody who is listening, is there anything that you would recommend that they should go away as an activity to to be more creative or to implement more creative thinking activities, processes in the work environment.
Key takeaways and parting thoughts
Rob Cannon: Tricky. So many little things to say. I mean, you know, at a fundamental level, and it may sound a bit simple, but you know, just, it starts with believing that you have the capacity to be creative.
So many people listen to all this kind of stuff and then they'll discount it in their own minds because at the back of their mind, they've got the voice going, yeah, but I'm not creative. You know, I work in this department, whatever. We all have that capacity, you have to believe it. It starts with believing in your own capacity to be creative. Remembering that it's a muscle. The more you do it, the easier it gets, and you'll be coming up with ideas in no time. You have to believe it and then you just have to get on with it. And you know, we've talked about some of the sort of ways of doing it today. There is a lot written out there of idea generation techniques, whether it's types of brainstorming or role playing or visioning or whatever it is. Try all this stuff, experiment with all this stuff, figure out what works for you, what doesn't. But it starts with that belief that not you can be creative, you are creative, you have that capacity. And then it's practicing, exercising that. And that goes obviously for an individual level and more broadly within a work environment and for a team working on this together. It's the sort of thing where you put people in a room and you say, right, come up with ideas to begin with. People are gonna be like, uh, what? Even if you think, hey, we're all safe here or whatever. But the more you practice it, the more people can get into that mode really quickly going, all right, bang, bang, here's some crazy ideas. Let's fling this around. Oh, that's really cool. Let's, you know, grow on that. So yeah, start with basics. Actually believe you are creative and then get on with it.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I love that. I now wanna get in the room and get creative and get going on things.
Sarah, anything that you'd like to add to that? Any of the key takeaways?
Sarah Partridge: Yeah, look, a couple of things.
I mean, I think, Rob, you said it, mindset is so important in a dialogue with ourselves about this stuff, you know. Just realizing that part of being human is being creative. We all have the capacity to do it. It isn't just for the chosen ones. It's not just about being John Lennon or Salvador Dali, right? Everybody has the capacity for this. So mindset's hugely important.
I think, from a leadership perspective, role modeling the right behaviours, like we talked about, is hugely important. And I think there's a caveat we haven't talked about, which I'll quickly mention with leaders that you know, the more knowledge and expertise we have in a topic, which leaders tend to have because they've been in the business a long time, or they've been promoted to leadership because they have that expertise and knowledge, what that can sometimes create is assumptions. Which are blockers to creativity. So the assumption that, well, this is how it's always been done, or, you know, I've tried other ways to do it and there aren't any other ways to do it. Right? So actually your knowledge and your expertise can be a double-edged sword when it comes to creativity. So if you are a leader listening to this, just be aware of that. Just have awareness that sometimes you might not want to engage in a different way of doing it because you have expertise in the way that you do it, right? So changing that might not feel appealing, but push yourself out your comfort zone and allow that kind of nuance, that new way of doing it, to kind of be part of that everyday dialogue that you have with your team in meetings, and reward people that come to you with ideas. And suggest improvements and take it upon themselves to make things better. Because that's what creativity is, right? It's about making the world a better place, whether it's your little sphere at work or whether it's something huge out there in the world. It's just about making things better than they already are.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Wow. Really well said. Well, I for one, feel really inspired after listening to you both. I'm gonna go and crack out my paint by numbers because that's probably where my creative, flexible muscle.
Sarah Partridge: No mindset. Sophie. No, you can do more than that.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I can do more than paint by numbers. Salvador Dali, here I come.
Well, a huge thank you both for taking today, to have a really, really great and inspiring chat around creativity.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: : Just to finally close this out, would you mind sharing how we can contact you? So Rob, I'm just gonna ask you first.
Rob Cannon: Yeah, sure. Obviously through LinkedIn, Rob Cannon and through my website, which is www.robcannon.co.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And your book, Rob, where, where can we find your book?
Rob Cannon: Oh, here you go. Well, all good bookstores. Amazon's got it. Here's a copy right here. It's called Aha! A User’s Guide To Creativity.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Love it.
Sarah Partridge: It's a great book. I highly recommend it.
Rob Cannon: Thanks Sarah.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And awesome. Sarah, how can we, how can we contact you?
Sarah Partridge: Yep, no problem at all.
So my website is thechangeacademy.co.uk or you could email me directly, sarah@thechangeacademy.co.uk.
Amazing.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And I've been Sophie Brazell-Ng, your host today. You can contact me on LinkedIn or directly through Clarasys. Amazing. Thanks very much both.
Sarah Partridge: Cheers, Sophie.
Rob Cannon: Thank you.
Sarah Partridge: Lovely to see you.
Show notes
Guest bio’s
Rob Cannon, Arts & Entertainment Industry Coach
Rob Cannon is a consultant, coach, and educator, specialising in creativity and the creative industries. He works with artists and creative practitioners, as well as professionals and executives across multiple industries, in both individual and team settings. Previously, he had a number of roles at major record labels, working with artists ranging from Rod Stewart to Alicia Keys to Maroon 5.
Rob has authored and presented numerous articles, talks, and conference papers on creativity, on navigating relational dynamics within the music industry, and on the application of positive and performance psychology in the creative industries. He is also the co-author of the book Aha! A User’s Guide To Creativity, published in 2023.
View Rob’s website here.
Contact Rob via email here.
Find Rob on LinkedIn here.
Sarah Partridge, Founder & Director at The Change Academy
With a passion for purpose-driven leadership and a keen understanding of modern business challenges, Sarah leverages her extensive boardroom experience to guide individuals and organisations through transformative change.
Prior to pioneering The Change Academy, Sarah honed her leadership and strategic acumen in diverse arenas. At BMW Group Financial Services UK, she served as Head of Strategy & Business Development, collaborating closely with the CEO and executive team to chart the company's course. Leading critical functions including internal communications, innovation, and change management, Sarah acquired a deep understanding of organisational dynamics.
Sarah began her career as a passionate musician and creative marketer, immersed in the vibrant major label culture of the recorded music industry. As she climbed the ladder from Sony to Universal and finally to Marketing Director at EMI, she witnessed the energising power of creativity and learned the true definition of leadership, good, bad, and ugly. This dynamic journey fuelled her desire to empower individuals and organisations to challenge the status quo, embrace change and unlock their full potential.
The Change Academy embodies this philosophy. Founded on the belief that true growth lies outside the comfort zone; the Change Academy provides challenging and deeply supportive learning programmes. Sarah's lived experience informs every initiative, ensuring solutions are grounded in the realities of the modern workplace. From SMEs to established corporations, The Change Academy's unique blend of leadership development, strategic guidance and executive coaching empowers organisations across all sectors to navigate transformation and thrive.
View Sarah's website here.
Contact Sarah via email here.
Find Sarah on LinkedIn here.
To discuss anything discussed in the podcast, please contact us at podcast@clarasys.com.
