In this episode of "Game Changers," host Sophie Brazell-Ng is joined by Sally Jenner, an experienced change leader, to discuss the intricacies of managing and leading successful organisational transformations. Sally shares her experiences, practical tools, and key strategies for navigating change effectively, ensuring adoption, and measuring success.
Listen here or read on for an edited transcript:
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of The Changemakers. Today I'm joined by the wonderful Sally Jenner. We're going to be having a really great conversation today about Sally's experience in change management and throughout her career. I'm really excited for this conversation. Before we started this, we were thinking we've got to keep it in time. I feel like Sally and I could chat for hours. So we're really excited to bring Sally here today. Sally, do you want to introduce yourself?
Sally Jenner: Hi. Yeah. Sally Jenner. You'll hear a lot more about me, but currently working for myself, specialising in three areas, which is high performance team development, leadership development, and individual coaching.
I'm at that lovely stage of my life where I'm doing what I love with people I love. So yeah, looking forward to sharing some of the experiences that I've had over the last 40 years.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. Well, welcome to the Clarasys office as well on a absolutely beautifully sunny day.
I knew when I first met Sally that this would be, I needed Sally on the podcast, it was going to be a really great and exciting conversation. We both have, so many kind of similarities and topics that we're really, really interested to talk about. So let's get started.
Today we're just going to be doing a little bit of an interview really, finding a little bit more about yourself and kind of the successful career that you've had.
As always though, we start with a little bit of definition. I'm pretty sure a few folks might know what it is we're talking about today, given that it's the Changemakers podcast, but it would be wrong if we didn't start off with a quick definition of what do we mean by change management, Sally?
What do we mean by change management?
Sally Jenner: Well, it's a great question because I think it possibly means quite a lot of different things to different people, but essentially for me, it's all about how do businesses take people with them on their change journey.
And change can be prompted by so many different things, whether that's a change in process, might be a change to a system, use of technology, a new facility or infrastructure. But the key is how you bring people with you so that when the new thing arrives, there's no surprises.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, I completely agree with that one.
A lot of people, when they talk about change management, is we're bringing in this new thing, or we are doing this new technology, or this new process. And actually, I always think, wow, okay, it's actually the flip of that. It's you're asking people to do something new. And it's always the people that I think should be leading that conversation, because ultimately you can put the best tech, the best process, the best thing in the world, but if people aren't using it, then it's not going to land well.
You might have done a really great job, but it's not going to be what you thought it was going to be.
Sally Jenner: Yeah, totally. The adoption of the new activity or the new infrastructure or the new system is totally reliant on people embracing the change and not resisting it. And I think we just have to recognise that's a really important thing to do in parallel.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah. And change comes from all angles in life. And as people say, at increasing speeds right now. So ensuring that we help people through that and think through things from the lens of a person is probably more imperative than it ever has been before.
Awesome. So, I know, Sally, you've got an extensive career in change management. Can you tell us a little bit about your career journey?
Sally Jenner: Yeah, of course. The timing of this is so perfect because yesterday was my 40th work anniversary, which is quite amazing, really, because I feel just the same as I did at 17. But I did just over 30 years working in aviation, had the most fantastic career. And probably at the time, it didn't feel like work a lot of the time because I just loved what I did, but it's sort of had three distinct parts to that career. So I started off in HR and training. I think people have always been very close to me, but that's sort of where I started.
Then I had, really fantastic 15 years working in operations across Gatwick and Heathrow. Anything to do with baggage or passengers was sort of my gig.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I can imagine that. So you've got some wild stories within that.
Sally Jenner: Well, I think I was affectionately known as the bag lady at Heathrow for many, many years. And it was amazing. I mean, I loved it because it was, actually leading and working with people rather than the theory of, I guess, what I'd learned in HR at the beginning of my career.
And then over the last 10 years of my career moved into sort of transformation change, really, how you take that leap of faith, how you really bring about that step change. And very often it was prompted by new infrastructure because we were the airport operator. But absolutely loved combining that whole piece around operations with people change and really making a difference.
So I did that for just over 30 years. And then after that, I moved into consulting where I guess I sort of took my transport experience, but my love of people and change, um, went to share that with some different industries, different sectors, and realized actually a lot of the stuff we've done in aviation work just as well in, in other avenues as well. And then this time last year went freelance. So that's, that's my 40 years.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: In a quick nutshell. I mean, that's such a wide ranging and really, really interesting career. And I'm sure we're kind of going to dive into some of the stories a little bit later on. What I love about what you shared with us and it's the practical part of change that you've got then. And I think people forget that, particularly as we're in now a post Covid world, where a lot of people are used to being desk managers or keyboard warriors. And in actual fact, they're forgetting that a lot of the things that we need to do are front facing, people facing services. And there are things that you can absolutely do from behind a desk and there's going to be things that are critical for that and there are roles for that. But in actual fact, if we're doing some change that requires people to do something different with their jobs, baggage from Heathrow, it's going to be really difficult for you to engage with those people and do something really great for them and understand what it means for them if you're not in their space. So I really, really like that you've mentioned that practical element and that leap of faith as well.
Sally Jenner: Yeah, and I think that is the absolute key that when you're trying to bring in something new and different, there will be resistance. So actually allying their fears and getting to the root of what they're concerned about comes from personal relationship and building trust. And for me, that has to come from being with people, being in their space, getting them to show you what they do today and therefore be able to try and translate what will be changing and different in the future. Because essentially change is always from a project point of view seen as a really big deal, but when you break it down into bite sized chunks of what does this actually mean for people in their individual jobs, very often the actual scale of change for them individually will be less. But it's about how you translate what is changing and different per role so that people understand and feel like they've had a chance to influence and shape some of that early on.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. I'm actually really interested to dive into that a little bit further, and I would love to kind of know or hear from you what your experience was of running that large scale change with people in the airport space via baggaging and how you actually connected with people.
Running large scale change in the aviation industry
Sally Jenner: Yeah, so let's continue talking about the baggage program because I think it's probably a really good example to bring some of that learning forward.
So, I think one of the things that we did really early on, I had to recognise that we were building a facility that was going to be operated. Probably 80 percent of the people in that building were not our own staff and teams. They were through third parties, whether that was airline or handler, mainly handler.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: That makes it even more tougher, right?
Sally Jenner: Yeah. So trying to bring about change in an organisation and a business that isn't your own, where you don't have the authority, you have to influence. So actually the big thing was about really building relationships. top to bottom in each of those companies.
So we created this change network where we had representatives and baggage handler right up to the operations director. And what we did was we engaged those different levels and groups of people, as we went through the different changes that we knew that would manifest from building a very different facility and bringing in technology in a way that they'd never had to embrace it. So the really key bit for us was being clear about the distinction between communication and engagement.
If there's a lesson I've learned is I think early in my career, I tried to communicate too much. And I think the key is to communicate where decisions have been made. And where it is a decision, as I would say, sort of set in concrete. And then it's the skill of identifying where there genuinely is the opportunity for people to be involved and to shape a solution. And finding those opportunities and then involving those teams. So that they get a chance to come up with ideas, suggestions, and in some cases, actually come up with a solution, for me is key. Because if they've had a part to play, they are so more likely to be on your side and to support it. And a great example of that is doing trials or proving environments where you can get them to try out the new processes, the new ways of working, get a chance to give them hands on experience with the new technology, practice using it, understand what the great parts of it are and anything that is concerning them so that they actually feel like they've got a voice in the change.
And I would say that was distinctly one of the real success factors, engaging people at all levels so that when the change came. There were very, very few surprises.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: That's awesome. I mean, something that I'm thinking about as you talk about that is you're truly bringing the best out of people by involving them. So you're saying, come and help us solve this problem. And this problem is affecting you and it's probably actually annoying for you. So come in and let us know what it really means for you. In a weird way, that gives us the two elements that you've just described of buy in from them, so they're actually committing themselves to that change and more willing to accept things in the future, but then also gives you the opportunity to look through the world through their eyes to actually truly understand what a change can mean for you. And you mentioned about the communication actually find those points that really resonate. When we're looking at that bird's eye view of a change and we're classically looking at the benefits in a business case and why something's been done, you often come out with these benefits that are like, Oh, we're going to achieve X, Y, and Z, and then you start to talk to people. And that means absolutely diddly squat to somebody on the ground. I mean, if we take your baggage example, it's probably like, I want you to help me make my job a little bit easier. Like I've got to get through bags a bit quicker. There's probably some things like, Oh, I'm a bit worried about how my back, the longevity of my career, you know, how am I going to do things? So it's really actually distilling what the project is trying to do or the change is trying to do into things actually means something for a person.
Sally Jenner: Well that is a brilliant example actually that you've reminded me of because one of the big things at the airport was protecting people's health, particularly moving hundreds of bags a day. And one of the things that we were trying to introduce was the adoption of manual handling aids. And we actually involved the baggage handlers in helping us design, because there was a couple of prototypes that we were working on, and they gave us feedback on the fact that design didn't work quite as well as they'd wanted. So they made some changes to it. What was fascinating with that was we thought they would really readily be delighted about the manual handling aid, but actually it was seen as a slight criticism that they couldn't cope with moving bags, heavy bags, and therefore it was seen as a bit insulting to suggest that they needed help. And we flew some baggage handlers over that had been working in a different airport over in Schiphol, and we got them talking peer to peer to the baggage handlers. And interestingly, they were the people that made the difference, because they didn't talk about how the manual handling aids had helped them at work. They talked about the difference it had made to their lives, because when they got home, they were no longer absolutely physically exhausted, and therefore their quality of life outside work had improved. They could join football clubs, they could go to the park with their children, they could, you know, be much more active. And actually that became the sell, not the thing that we thought, which was about improving their day at work. The sell was improving their life.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: That is such an awesome example, because you wouldn't have known that without spending time to get to know the people that you're doing the change for. And actually, again, if you're looking back at that, we're doing this change because we want to bring in some new baggage handling and it's going to make people's lives at work easier. Okay, yeah, obviously that sounds really great, but actually when you start to talk to people, that doesn't necessarily resonate with them. They might be thinking, well, what about my job? Are robots taking over the world essentially? Same conversations we're kind of having it with Gen AI as well right now, where in actual fact you've gone there, you've introduced them or identified the right people that they should talk to and said, well, this is actually the true benefit that you're going to get. And you would never know that without asking those questions, finding the opportunity for them to have that conversation with the right person that might not have necessarily been you as well, to actually really speaks their language that resonates with them. And then you can turn that into something that supports the adoption of whatever change that you're putting in place. How powerful is that?
Sally Jenner: And we talk a lot, don't we? In change about what's in it for me. There isn't a better example for me of understanding what's in it for them by asking them, not telling them.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Completely. Completely. And it goes back to my point of being sort of like the armchair kind of consultant in that space or sort of the keyboard warrior. You're never going to find that out unless you get to the airport, unless you go and ask people those questions and actually really involve yourself in that. So I think a huge powerful tip for anybody that's listening to this conversation, figure out the best way to find out from somebody what's in it for them and speak their language. That will kind of help you wholeheartedly with any change that you're going to be doing.
Are there any kind of other challenges that you've had in your wide-spanning career through change management?
Workplace change management challenges
Sally Jenner: Many. I think.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: It's a big broad question that really.
Sally Jenner: It's a huge question. I think in any change, there are so many different stakeholders. And it's how do you understand what the differing needs might be of those different stakeholders.
In my case, airlines had very different operating models, different priorities, different emphasis in terms of what was important to their business model. So trying to find that commonality of one way of working to try and provide some consistency in terms of operating practices was really challenging and it does take a lot of work.
I think the other challenge is finding the right people to work with when you're trying to bring about change. So often we choose the people with the right job title, hierarchy, positional power, but actually finding the people that really can be the effective change agents in the organisation s, the people that have the influence.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: The people skills that don't need to have all the, the, the letters after their name and all of the certificates, et cetera, that doesn't really mean anything when you get to the people part of it.
Sally Jenner: Exactly right. And for me, finding those like minded change agents, I guess, across. the industry that were going to work within their own parts of the change program and really driving sort of one team mentality was really critical. I think there's always a resistance to change because people fear that they won't be able to do the things that have made them good at what they've been doing. So one of the great things that we did was a familiarisation induction and training program that came with large scale change that allowed us to really understand how we could ensure that the people were confident and competent to work in the new way. And actually by giving them the training and the skills and the opportunity to trial things and practice things by the time day one comes, it's less fearful. But that is a huge amount of work because so often the numbers of people that you've got to reach are huge.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And you've often not got very many of us trying to look at that. There'll plop a change manager on right at the end of a big change or a program or, and there's only one of us, for example, you're like, well, that's not what that needs.
Sally Jenner: Yeah. And I think that's a really important point you raised, which is particularly in my experience where it's been infrastructure projects, it's so important to be involved at the beginning, to be able to understand at the start, what the end looks like and be able to then prepare for it. But the reality is that construction takes a while to actually build things. But it's having the thinking up front and then coming back towards the back end so that you can then make sure that that new construction project turns into an operational facility in my case. So I think it is really important that we don't just see change as a thing that you do right at the end, but you actually get the thinking in right at the front and then work that through. So I think your point is well made.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: It's not something that you need to go and say, Oh no, we put sticky plaster over it. Because I think something that I've always said with great change management, which sometimes is a little bit of a detriment to ourselves, is if it's done well, you will have never known we were there. If it's been done poorly, it's really, really obvious. And that sometimes means I think that when people are building like great project teams to support a change, they actually sometimes forget about that because, Oh, it's going to be all like smooth sailing. It's going to be absolutely okay. In actual fact, they don't realize that as a change manager, we've actually moved a lot of the things that would have been blockers and problems out of your way, project team, so that you can deliver on that change or that technical element or the infrastructure element, because we've dealt with a lot of things upfront, or we've asked the right questions or we've thought about things in a slightly different way that means that the rest of the program can be successful.
Sally Jenner: Yeah. And I think, you know, it's such an important point you make there, which is when change goes well, sort of almost people don't recognise the work that's gone into it.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And they'll think they didn't need you.
Well, you did.
Sally Jenner: You did.
How to ensure big change is the smallest it can be?
Sally Jenner: And I think it's about understanding the things that you can change before the new thing arrives. So often we wait for the new tech or the new infrastructure or the new facility, and we save all the change for this big first day of operation. One of the things I think that is really worth thinking about is what can you do in advance so that on day one, The change is as small as it can be.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, day one's not your day one, actually.
Sally Jenner: Exactly. So the real skill is if there's behavioural or perhaps some process change that doesn't require the new thing, then make those changes early, wait for the new thing, and by then they'll have got used to doing the things that they needed to. So it's just about the smartness of change, of not making it this really big bang, but making it really small, incremental steps.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: It's something that you actually said a little bit before, this was the building blocks, like break it down into its simplest of elements. And I think that's a huge key thing with change, particularly when people have got other jobs they're trying to do. You're trying to put in a change at the same time as they're trying to actually do their normal job, for example. So, I'm not going to be able to handle everything all at once, and I'm not going to be able to handle everything in the level of detail, and I need it to speak to me in the situation that I'm currently in. So breaking it down into those smaller building blocks actually is going to really, really help somebody understand kind of the change and what needs to be seen from them.
Change management challenge: Loss and fear of failure
Sophie Brazell-Ng: The other thing I think that, as we're talking about some of the challenges as I've found in the change spaces, it's always around loss and fear of failure. I don't know if you've experienced some of that as well in your career.
Sally Jenner: Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting because I've got this sort of saying that I use quite a lot, which is that I don't think people fear change, I think they fear loss. And I had a great example on a big change program, actually, that we were running at Gatwick and we got to stalemate actually talking to the trade unions about the change. And I had my head in my hands one day in one of the coffee shops down at Gatwick, and the trade union rep came over and said, 'bad day?'. And I said, do you know, I don't know what more to do. I'm actually stuck. And he was a fantastic guy. And he just said, I think you've just missed the important bit here. And I was like, what have I missed? And he said, I think you focusing on the wrong loss. And we'd focused on the loss of status and position and supervisory position as a result of the change that we were doing. And he said to me, that's not the fear of loss, Sally, the fear of loss is the loss of pension and employment status. If you can guarantee us job security, people are less bothered by the job, but they're very bothered by the pension. And at that moment, it dawned, honestly, Sophie, and it was because we hadn't asked the right questions as a change leadership team. And that was my responsibility, but it was one of those really big lessons, which is our job as change leaders is to listen, to understand what is perceived for the individuals affected, what their loss is, and then find ways of overcoming that. And we did. We created, it was affectionately known as the GISA, but it was the Gatwick Employment Security Agreement. And if anyone from those days, if anyone from those days is listening to this, they will be smiling at this point. But within about four months, we'd put the change in because of unblocking a block that we hadn't understood because we hadn't asked the right questions.
The role of a change management professional
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I think another thing that you've said that's really powerful then that if people that are listening are change professionals or are going through a change and want to kind of use some of the techniques and thinking that we're talking about here is that you didn't know the answer and that's okay. You didn't know the answer, but you were willing to accept help from somebody else. And also as a change professional, we actually don't know the answers. Our job is to ask questions in order to elicit the answer and then play them back and speak with the voice of the employee in this instance. And I think that's a really big recognition that people need to know if they're going in and supporting any changes that you're not being asked there to come up with the answer straight away. And you can't. Because why would you? Because you don't do that person's job or you don't live what today is. I mean sometimes you can do and that's the beauty of having a change network. I know we'll probably go on to a little bit of discussion about that later on but it's actually your role is understanding that, asking questions, listening to people to truly understand what it means for them and being humble and okay with the fact that you don't know the answer straight out the blocks.
Sally Jenner: Yeah. And I think that is such an important element of, you've got to, you know, walk in their shoes and see the job through their eyes, as I always feel...
Do personas that describe, you know, the end state role and understand what the gap is from the as is. But I think the reality is project teams are set up to bring in something new and different and then the project team disappears and goes and works on the next project. And what we leave behind is an operational blueprint for people to then have to live and work by for years and years and years. So it is incredibly important that the people that we're doing this change for, which to your point earlier, very often will overcome some of the frustrations that they have in their job currently, we've got to get their voice heard. And make sure that we understood the job through their perspective, not through our lens. And also how arrogant of us to assume that we know how to do their job. So I do think it's important.
Yes, there's obviously the requirement for us to be able to show them a different thinking and a different possibility and be able to create a vision that perhaps, you know, they haven't thought of because they've got wedded to how they do things today. But we do need to understand how, um, you know, you shift them from what they do today to what we want them to do in the future and how we make that as easy as possible.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Absolutely. Something that's just reminded me of a really powerful exercise that I think folks can do and implement if you're really struggling to get the day in the life of. Or getting others to buy into the day in the life of, so they're saying, Oh, we're going to get X benefits and you're sat there saying, well, actually that might not be true, is to get those sponsors, executives, those people that are paying for the funding for the program and your team to actually go and do a day in the life of, get them in the situation to go and pick up the bags and experience a full day, go and get someone to be on the shop floor and understand what it means to handle customers when maybe your technology isn't working. What it's like if we've designed something where I've got to walk miles between x point and y point to serve as a customer who's frustrated and I'm doing that on a day to day basis. Like absolutely getting them to actually do a day. A week is even better to really understand what's going on, it'll make the project that you're doing so much easier because you'll be living in their shoes and also will mean that you can speak to what they need. Also you get a lot more respect from those people that you're doing. I think like there used to be a TV show actually when they got the bosses to come in and actually secret undercover boss or something.
Sally Jenner: Back to the floor.
One hundred percent, and you never, you know, you just don't appreciate some of those aspects day to day.
And I think, you know, we as managers and leaders of different businesses probably don't spend enough time just thinking about the importance of going back and doing those roles yourself and really talking to the people day in, day out to your point. And I think in change, it's even more important because if you're really wanting to try and encourage people to, I guess, have a different mode of operation, it's also just understanding how big the gap is. Because in my experience, very often the change for them is fairly small, but having them on side and I guess behind you when the change happens is so important because if they're not, then they'll resist you every step of the way.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Exactly. And, you don't need to do that when there's a change coming as well, bake that into the normal way that you work. Don't go in each month, go and do a day in the life of, because when you actually do come to go and do a change, you'll probably actually be ahead of everybody else knowing what has to change. And it's just, it's so important about knowing your staff that way. So massive, big tip there.
So interesting. Again, I kind of want to know more and more about the challenges, but I'm going to flip it to something a little bit positive and would love to know where there are some elements where you've won big. And you were really proud of some of those achievements and some of the things that you might have done as a result of that.
Reflections and learnings as a change leader
Sally Jenner: Yeah, I think there's a few things, you know, you always look back and certainly in preparation for today, it has made me really reflect on some of the things that I've done, good, bad and indifferent.
I think the one big, is where you've seen the change land. And I think one of the lessons that I took from being a change leader was I was very good at the beginning, at the upfront, being able to have the big picture vision, understanding where we needed to get to, but very often I wasn't the person to take it over the line. So I knew when the time came for me to step back and to bring someone else in to see it over the line. And that is something to think about as a change leader is, I'm not a great completer finisher, but I am quite good at the upfront stuff. So where I've won big is knowing when it's time to hand the reins over to someone that will do the implementation. So I would just say that as a personal reflection.
But the big wins, I think, and where we've won big was particularly where we were leading a big, organisation al change across all the Southeast airports and where we were really trying to shift the operation from being very reactionary and quite driven by crisis management into a far more planned operation and reducing the numbers of layers. Really trying to take away some of the bureaucracy and putting decisions in the hands of the frontline teams that were closest to the customer.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And that could make the decisions at the right time.
Sally Jenner: Absolutely. I mean, we learnt a lot during that period and we definitely saw some huge benefits, not only to the business in terms of saving a lot of operational costs, but actually being able to give people jobs where they really felt like they could make a difference and feel empowered.
But I would say we had to re recruit from top to bottom the leaders that were running the operation because we had a very strong leadership style around command and control and what we had to do was recognise that leadership style needed to be far more democratic and far more sort of coaching and empowering. And therefore we had to restructure and reorganize. And I think that was a brave decision because so often in change, you feel like you've got to give the existing leadership team the chance to work within the new mode of operation. But we did take a big decision to recruit from scratch and to recruit top down. What was powerful in that program, and I can't take credit for it, wasn't my idea, was we recruited the top team who then put the next level of leadership in. So it became their choice. And then as we started to cascade down through the levels, that leadership team had the responsibility and the empowerment for putting their teams together around them. And that was a really powerful way of seeing change really come to life. And particularly cause we wanted to invert the triangle, which I know is an awful phrase really, but to try and put the frontline at the front and to have a sort of follow ship leadership, which was so different to how we'd been previously. And actually it was a very, very good way of creating the culture through the change, if that makes sense. So trying to exhibit some of the behavioural change we wanted in end state through how we did the change. And that was a real big learning and a big win.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: That's huge because that is so difficult to do, especially when some of those leaders might've been the people that were setting the bill for the change. And I know it's something that we've, we've actually talked about a couple of times on this podcast. If you're looking for those, there's a couple that we've had a discussion with Sarah Partridge on teaming and the impact of leadership and cultural impacts. And it's so true. What people don't realize is if you are a triangle hierarchy based organisation , how you are as a leader will have a huge impact throughout the whole of your employment triangle. It's going to affect decisions that your next layer down make, therefore the decision that the layer down make after that, therefore the lives that others have to lead. And I think people don't realise that, that their role in a leadership space about the impact you have on culture, the decisions that you make in the way that you choose to present and articulate yourself has a huge material impact. So I can see how actually changing that leadership level can make a huge material impact. And it's something that I think you've also mentioned before I know is a complete passion of yours is about building those high performing teams as well. And it sounds like you did just that in that scenario.
Sally Jenner: Yeah, I think probably if I look back, we probably didn't do it deeply enough, but certainly new leadership teams that were set up, we had a sort of cadence of developing them into a high performing team across. Because so often you put a new leadership team in and they're really effective within their silos, but actually, how do you get the behaviours and the leadership join up so consistent across the business?
And I'm a great believer, particularly for project teams, actually, who are bringing in the new capability, giving them some time as a team to reflect and work out how they can be the most effective as a team, optimise how they operate together, be strength based, giving them some time off the pitch once a month to actually reflect and do some thinking, because when you're in the mix.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I like that, 'time off the pitch'.
Sally Jenner: Because so often we're so knee deep in the doing and giving leaders the space to be able to think, which is so often the bit that gets lost, I think is important. So I've actually had the good fortune of being the high performance team coach for the project teams that are implementing the change that works alongside the change, because it's tough leading change. I mean, you made such a good point earlier. People very often have their day jobs on top of the change that they're trying to bring about. And it is a different capability leading change opposed to leading business as usual. So giving that team the space to either upskill, but also recognise that they've got some learning to do too. And investing in them is really important so that when it gets tough, they're really joined strongly together because we all know how when we're under stress, things become difficult and challenging and that's when the team needs to be stronger. So I'm a great believer in invest in getting the team high performing because they need to be.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, because it's tough. It's so true. It's sort of, this is a rubbish analogy, but we built our boat together and we're all proud of the boat that we've built and it took us some time and a lot of hard work and energy. We're now out on the open shores as storms come. And we need to weather that storm and we all need to pull together as that team.
Sally Jenner: And if the relationship's strong and the trust is strong, they'll come together. If it's not there, that's when things start to, to fragment. And unfortunately I've seen that. So I am such a believer that you've got to invest in the team that are really putting the hours in and who are, who, as you say, are weathering the storm, because then when it gets difficult, they're really together together.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And it actually brings back to a point that you made a little bit earlier that you're not a good completer finisher, but I bet you know who in your team is the good complete finisher. So it's about knowing your team skills and how to pull on each other in the right spaces.
So I might go, Sally, like, we need a vision. I need you to help me with that. That is not my skillset. I'm going to lean on you for that. And I'm going to help you with that. Tell me what you need me to do. But Sally, when you get to that point where you don't know how to take it to the next level, or you need it to be kind of like really driven over the line, that's my skillset. Send it over to me, lean on me for that. And it's really important about knowing. When you need to lean on the members of your team and what their skill sets are and actually being okay with that and knowing that maybe you're not the person, the right person for that. Very much how we said earlier, as a change manager, my job is not actually to be able to know the answer to the questions I need to ask you for the answers to those questions and help that get out of you.
Sally Jenner: And very appropriately, right in the middle of the Olympics, as we are now, I use the analogy of the relay race. You know, I'm probably very good on the first couple of legs, but less good on the third and fourth. So, you know, if people are listening to this podcast, you'll know who I passed the baton to, who did an absolutely awesome job getting over that final line.
And I do think the role of change manager on big transformation programs does require different skill sets at different points. And it is being really conscious of where you're at your best, but also being really open to when you need to hand that baton over and go, this is not the best version of me, time for someone else.
And I probably learned that a little bit later in my career, having not necessarily handed the baton over at the right time.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: The key in that is getting a great coach to help you along with those things because often it's really hard to realize yourself. I just want to take us on a little bit to some practical takeaways because we've shared some really good stories and throughout this we've shared some kind of exciting things that people can take away and do but I really want to hone in on a couple of those because I know Sally when we were prepping for this podcast you started to share some really interesting different tools and techniques. Can you share with me some of your top tips, some of your great techniques that you use, uh, as a change manager.
Top tips as a change manager
Sally Jenner: Yeah, I think first and foremost, some standard tools like change impact assessments, you can't underestimate. Understanding the impacted audiences by the change that you're bringing about and being able to distill it into: what's changing? Is it a process? Is it behaviour? Is it a skillset that needs to shift, but being able to break it down so that you're really clear about what's changing and different and understanding how many people are affected by that is so critical. Because that then allows you to start a live fear of being able to talk to people specifically about those differences. And once you've done the change impact assessment, it's really nice if you can do some day in the life of's and be able to project forward, to be able to describe it. What the future world will look like for them in that role, particularly if you've done that great job of really listening and understanding some of the challenges that they've got today, so that they can then, you can start talking to those challenges and describe how the new world will erode some of those so that you get the what's in it for me.
So I love change impact assessments because I think it really forces you as a change leader to be crystal clear about what's changing and different. Being able to then turn that into a day in the life of, or a persona for people so they can start to visualize what the future looks like and hopefully allay some of the fear or concerns they've got. And then the key is where you can to give them a chance to practice or see mock ups or trials of how that might work.
So we had an example where we needed to have a very different way of building baggage in the change program that we were doing, something called compress build. And we went and actually mocked it up and got some of the baggage handlers to help us refine and improve and work out how we could achieve that within the timescales that we needed to. And actually it was really powerful because it started to show them what the future world would look like. And then once you've understood what's changing and different for people, you can then work out, is this something I need to familiarise them with? Show them? Particularly if it's a new facility. Do we need to induct them? Because actually, it's going to require them to work quite differently, particularly from a health and safety point of view. And then what's the training? What's the new skill set? What's the new behaviour? What's the new competence they need? And if you roll out familiarisation, induction and training per role, so that people can go in feeling like they've been thought of, that's a really powerful way of getting them ready.
Implementing change: The ‘show me you know’ approach
Sally Jenner: The bit I would add to that is that so often the familiarisation induction training takes place a little way before go live. So in one of my roles, we introduced something called show me, you know, which was just before we went live, we had a rehearsal. So in the same way,
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I love that.
Sally Jenner: Well, it's the same way
Sophie Brazell-Ng: It just takes away all the panic.
Sally Jenner: Yeah. Because you wouldn't go on stage, would you having learnt your lines, but not tried on your, you know, your clothes that you're going to wear for the show. You bring it all together in a rehearsal to make sure that it all works. Well, that's what Show Me You Know is. It's a chance to get into the new environment before you're actually dealing with customers or the live operation and check that it all works as you think it should. So for me, familiarisation, induction, training and showing me a no is so important, but do it off the back of the trials and the proving. Because until you've refined the ways of working and really understood what it means in practice, it's impossible to then create the right training offer. And that for me would probably be the, the suite of things that I would say would be absolutely critical in terms of getting people competent, but as importantly confident.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Can you remind me what the F, the I and the T stand for?
Sally Jenner: So familiarisation, induction, And training.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: So a fit assessment. Yeah. Love it.
Sally Jenner: A fit assessment.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Coined right here, right now. It's absolutely fantastic. And I love Show Me You Know. There's some really awesome tips in there. I couldn't have said it any better myself. That is a perfect way for people to really think about doing change.
But with that, the next part is that people adopt it. That change has landed. How do we measure that success?
How to measure the success of a change?
Sally Jenner: I think this is the bit, if I'm honest, that I probably have got right not frequently enough. The best example, I think, is when you're clear of the framework of what you believe the key measures are going to be.
And that's, you know, probably a good half a dozen of measures, you know, half a dozen measures that you would want to say, we've spent this amount of money. This is the performance that we will be looking to achieve as a result. In an ideal world, you go back to the original business case that you wrote to get the funding and see what you cited in there. But I think the key is to giving the measurement over to the operation or the people that are going to be living with the new capability you've introduced. Because as a project team, there will be an inevitability of that ramping down. And one of the best examples that I saw, which was nothing to do with me, was that there was a handing over of those measures that went from the business case and the business benefits map within the project into business as usual and was hard baked into the business plan and the performance of the operations team that then needed to adopt and ensure that the changes were embed.
I think anybody that's familiar with Kotter knows that step seven and eight so often don't happen. You know, we put all the energy into communicating the vision, getting a guiding coalition, bringing in some short term wins, starting to see the new thing working. And then we all go off and start the new, big, exciting project. And the sustain and embed is the bit that so often gets missed. The best example
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Or we go and try and shove in a whole other new bit of change at the same time when you're trying to land that first one.
Sally Jenner: Yeah, that's such a good point. That is such a good point. I think we get impatient because we get excited by what's coming next. But actually getting the business to own the measures, and embed those within their business planning process, recognise you probably need a contingency pot because however well thought through these projects are, there will always be teething problems and, and a period of transition that probably won't be quite as you envisage. But I would say, you know, you should be looking to really realize those benefits within the first one to three years of operation, ideally. But the ownership has to be within the business because the project team will have gone. Otherwise the conscience doesn't live on.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And I love the idea also of actually some of the employees that we might be impacting actually create some of the KPIs themselves, get them involved in that change, because they're going to stand behind those and actually they're going to come up with KPIs that make a material difference to how things run operationally. If you can get people to commit to something, they're most likely going to be able want to go and achieve it.
I also think the other thing sometimes with the business cases, and nobody shoot me for saying this, is that often we put in KPIs to get a business case through the door. Doesn't necessarily mean actually when you've gone to go and do it, you can actually deliver on those. Now, if we don't deliver on those, some folks that sometimes see that, as a failure, but what they actually forget to realize is all the amazing things they've done as they go through. So when I'm kind of working in change projects, yes, we need to have that goal to go for, but if I've missed out on 1 percent on that, that does not mean that we failed. And I'm always going to welcome new KPIs in there or new measures of success that actually show what we've achieved because there will always be both positive and negative ramifications of a change that you've done and you won't have originally seen those. You cannot predict what other changes are coming down the line in the future that you might want to kind of be reporting against. So I think measuring success is crucial. And through a people lens and through the adoption, but let's also not forget that actually we need to apply a little bit of pragmatism, a little bit of flexibility to it and not think the project has failed because I didn't hit X number of it. Okay. You didn't maybe not hit the X number in that specific KPI that you look at, but have you realized all the other awesome things that you've done as a result of that change?
Sally Jenner: Yeah. And capturing those sort of short term wins and those nice surprises is so important because yes, you need the metrics. Yes. You've got to be able to demonstrate the investment you've made has tangibly made a benefit to the business. Of course, particularly where it's big scale investment, but actually capturing those great good news stories along the way that you can share with people that perhaps you hadn't envisaged at the beginning become really powerful and people starting to see, you know, when they talked about this project five years ago, they talked about us being able to achieve different things. And here we are with some tangible examples of that working. That's where people's confidence starts to get built. So I do think that's really important.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yep. Awesome. Sally, I've got one last question for you before we start to sort of wrap things up. We talked a little bit in our prep about ensuring that we bring kind of our unique personal owner to being a change manager and I think from everyone listening to this conversation we can hear that you've absolutely done that throughout your career as a change manager. For you, what do you think is a critical success factor for any change manager listening to this?
Sally Jenner: I think, first and foremost, I've learned as I've gone. And I think you only get good when you've had lots of experience. So don't assume you're going to be perfect straight off. But if I was to distill the capabilities that I would say are crucial is you have got to have a really compelling reason for the change. So often we don't spend enough time on the why. And being able to describe to people the ambition or the need for that ambition at the beginning is so important.
The second bit, which has been probably the, the area that I'm most proud of is finding that guiding coalition of people that you know will be your real change makers and not assuming it's by job title, but find the person with the right influence that is going to make some stuff happen. And creating that as a really strong team, because you're going to go through thick and thin, particularly where the change is across many different businesses, not just your own.
I think you said, and I think you've said it so well, the need to listen to the people that are going to be most affected is more important than communicating. And I think at times we feel the need to keep communicating and not enough listening and understanding that loss. Because once you understand the loss, you'll understand the resistance that's going to come. And I would say those would be the really key ingredients. that I would say every change leader would have to have amongst many others, but they're the ones for me that I think make the biggest difference to change really happening rather than being talked about.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Write that down, people. Sally, a great conversation. Honestly, I, again, as I always say with this, I feel like we could talk for hours, but I really feel like we could talk forever. We also probably have, um, as well. I think one thing that's really stood out for me is, is something that you said that people, they don't fear change. They fear loss. If you were to say, sort of summarize one key takeaway from this conversation today, what would that be for our listeners?
Sally Jenner: I think it's recognizing that the people that are very often responsible for the change, may not have the right change capability and therefore equipping the people that are going to be leading the change with both change skills, but the ability to work really strongly as a high performing team. Recognizing that change is tough, I think is a really key ingredient for success along the way.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. Can't thank you enough for being part of today's conversation.
Sally, you started this off by saying this year you've gone freelance and I think a lot of people listening to this might be thinking, how do I get in touch with Sally? So can you just share a little bit of how people can get in touch with you?
Sally Jenner: Of course. First of all, I've loved this. It's been really thought provoking for me to actually stop and really trying to still some of the experience, so thank you so much for inviting me to talk to you today.
You can reach me on LinkedIn. So Sally Jenner consulting services, but yeah, I'd love to hear from people. I'd love some feedback on anything that we've said today that has resonated. And if people just would like to chat some stuff through or get, an independent view or a slight I guess fresh pair of eyes on things. I'd absolutely welcome the opportunity to work with people. I'm really passionate about using the experience that I've gained over the years to help other people, perhaps not make some of the mistakes that I made early on. So yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best way and would love to hear from people.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. Well, thank you once again, Sally, on behalf of myself and on behalf of Clarasys as well. We'll put all of the information that we've just shared, including how to contact Sally in the show notes for anybody who is wanting to look at those items. Please, please, please like, follow, subscribe, all of that fun stuff. We'll be sharing more conversations. I'm hoping we'll get Sally back on the podcast again in future, but thank you very much for listening and thank you for listening.
Show notes
Guest bio: Sally has over 40 years’ experience in Operational Leadership and change management roles. As a Leadership and Team Development coach she is driven and motivated by the “people agenda” and has worked with teams and individuals to find their purpose, understand their unique strengths and develop plans to deliver improvement to the bottom line.
Throughout her 40 years in business, Sally has held some significant operational leadership roles and has led change in a highly complex environment. More latterly Sally has moved into consultancy where she brings a unique blend of leadership, coaching and change management.
