In this episode of ‘Simply Sustainability’, host Ruth Wilkinson welcomes guests father and daughter duo Andy and Emily Brown to explore the dynamic interplay between generations in shaping purpose-driven organisations.
Whether you’re a seasoned leader or an emerging talent eager to make your mark, this conversation reveals the transformative power of intergenerational collaboration. The trio delves into innovative ideas, the significance of cultivating passion within teams, and how to effectively bridge the gap between experience and fresh perspectives to drive meaningful change.
Listen here or read on for an edited transcript:
Ruth Wilkinson: Welcome to today's podcast. I'm very excited to be sat here today with Andy and Emily. We're three people that met. in November in a rainforest in Cornwall. And however many months later, we've decided to get together and record a podcast. I'm going to keep you in suspense while we ask Andy and Emily to introduce themselves. And then we'll tell you why we met in the rainforest in Cornwall and what's brought us together to create a podcast today.
So introducing Emily first.
Emily Brown: Yeah, I am Emily. I am a geography graduate currently living down in Cornwall and trying to break into the sustainability environmental sector. I'm working in customer service at the moment, so a bit of fun, a bit of um, horror. And then also co hosting a podcast of my own called Between the Generations, which is with Andy, my dad, focused on just breaking into the sector, careers, and how we can work between the generations to work towards our targets.
Ruth Wilkinson: Amazing. So Andy.
Andy Brown: Yes. Hi. And, uh, thanks for having us Ruth. So I'm Andy Brown. I, um, I guess getting towards the end of my career in sustainability, I sound like a very old man now. So I've worked in sustainability for over 30 years. Originally an ecologist and then broadened out into wider kind of natural environment, then into climate change and sustainability. And now my kind of focus is on purpose-driven organisations. So helping the company I work for, Anglian Water, drive towards delivering their purpose, but also working more broadly across industries in the UK and beyond to try and show how you can put purpose at the heart of your organisation and deliver on behalf of the planet and the people who rely on the planet, but in a profitable way.
Ruth Wilkinson: Amazing. This is my first podcast with a father-daughter duo. And it made me feel like maybe I should have invited my dad. My dad might listen to this and be annoyed with me that I didn't invite him to join in. But his 20 to 30 years in tax consulting might not have as much relevance, I don't think. But he is a very personal advocate for sustainability and is probably the main reason I actually work in sustainability now. So I would have to credit him and my mom with that.
Quick intro to me then. I'm Ruth. I lead our purpose and impact practice at Clarasys. We're a management consultancy. Support a whole range of clients to do purpose and impact, but lots of other things as well. And I met andy and Emily. I'd actually met Andy before, but I met Emily for the first time in the rain forest in Cornwall at the Eden Project at a conference called Anthropy, which is a space where lots of organisations and sectors get together to talk about how we can create a better Britain, thinking about people, planet and places.
And it was a fascinating set of sessions throughout three days, which we really came together to talk around purpose. And Andy and I ended up working together on another collaboration for the purpose in practice community. And I've stayed in touch with Emily, who's been looking for jobs in this space, exploring what's going on in the world around the space. So I thought today we could get together and talk about generational perspectives on sustainability. And I know it's the focus of your podcast. And I have an opening question, which is why do you think it's important to think about sustainability and the relevance and through the lens of different generational perspectives. And what prompted you to start that conversation and keep it going? Em, I'll come to you first.
Generational perspectives on sustainability
Emily Brown: It's a big question. I think just sustainability in general I mean, it's so important looking at starting my career and looking at the next, I guess, almost 50 years ahead of me, wanting to be working in a space that's moving towards those important targets, looking at environmental, social, people and place, and just making sure that I'm working in an area that's working for the planet. And I think that's sort of what led us to start our podcast - Dad’s been in the sector for many years. And like you, I think growing up, sustainability was a word that's thrown around in the house and I've always known about, so just delving deeper into what that really means in business and definitely for purpose moving forward.
Ruth Wilkinson: And I'm intrigued to know, Andy, when you were starting out in your career in sustainability, how trendy was it at the time? How common was it for your peers to be going into this space? And how much do you think it's changed now that, you know, you've got me and Em here both in different earlier stages in our careers working in this space.
Andy Brown: So I vividly remember this was the first time I was taking my A levels because I dropped out of school education when I was 16 and went to work, went and worked in Tesco's in the fruit and veg section, and then got bored with that and went and worked in a couple of other places before taking myself back to college and gaining my A levels. So the first time I remember having a conversation with the college and saying, I wanted to work in the kind of environment. And I thought, I would get to a point in my career where every company would need to have somebody that was focused on environmental work. And we're talking, that was 1985, I think, when I had that conversation. And I remember the chap who was talking about careers with me at the time saying, that's not a reason to choose your A levels or your university course based on what might or might not happen. But, you know, I guess I've always had the belief that we would, as a species, wake up and recognize that unless we change things, we wouldn't kind of have a planet to all be living in and having a good time. But that was my early experiences. I'm really pleased, obviously, to be here many, many years later where that has come true and thinking that, you know, necessarily every company, but most companies are thinking about their environmental and now their social impacts and doing something about it. So, yeah it was really interesting to be at Anthropy last November and have the opportunity to have Em down with me. And she was helping to deliver some of the talks that we were doing and make sure the event worked and then interviewing people and putting stuff out on our LinkedIn channels and other things. And what really got into my head was there were also a group of, they were called rising stars, I think, at Anthropy, and I listened to some of them talking about what they needed to change in the sector and I just thought, yeah, it's so important for me getting, you know, so I'm 55. So I've, I got 10 years or so of career or more ahead of me. And, you know, sometimes I can feel a bit jaded or I can feel like, Oh, you know, how many times do I have to hit my head against this brick wall until you break through. And actually it's really good to talk to somebody who's coming into the career at an early stage, who can give you a totally different perspective or give a good talking to, if you need it to say. You know, we've been watching some of the Olympics this week and the people on the side, and there were a couple of athletes who said what made the difference for them was one single voice on the sideline telling them to pick it up or they've got it, keep going. And I think it's quite useful for having that in a career perspective. And then I thought, well, I've learned some lessons in my 30 something years of working in sustainability that I can pass on and hopefully give a bit of a kickstart to someone else's career. So that's a bit of the podcast from my perspective as well.
Ruth Wilkinson: Yeah, that's awesome. I think, when I was at school, there was no careers advice around sustainability at all. I had no idea what I wanted to do really, other than just try and solve some glaring problems I could see in the world. They had no avenue. There was nothing kind of filtering you into that. It was really like, how are you going to go make the most amount of money? And there was a whole load of stats wheeled out at you. This is the average graduate's early salary if you go and do this degree. Which I know when I was choosing my A levels, teachers were saying to me, come and do physics, come and do chemistry, come and do this because you'll earn more. I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to earn, well, I want to earn enough money to live, but I want to go and do something good in the world. And there felt no avenue to do that. I thought my only option was the charity sector. And I did English and creative writing at university again, cause I loved it and I was passionate about it. And I thought that's fine. That'll do me for now. But you know, I, I didn't get any science y background academia.
I once thought I needed to go into the charity sector to do anything kind of positive. I worked in the charity sector for five years, ended up working in sustainability because the charity I was at saw their role, saw the need to think about the negative impact they were creating alongside the positive one they were creating for their purpose. They also had a huge carbon footprint and a whole issue and a load of supply chain challenges and a whole lot of other sustainability stuff that they needed support with. So I ended up landing a sustainability role after working there for five years in a whole host of different admin, events, digital, comms, you know, I did all that before I ended up in sustainability. And then I got that job and I really didn't have any technical experience at all. And I was like, right, Google, how do you calculate an organisation's carbon footprint? And that was where I started. And I was like, right, I'll create a spreadsheet. And I did for like three years, bashed away at working out what we needed to do to be a sustainable organisation, which was total beginners guide. There's lots better training out there now and better ways to get into it, but it was a really powerful experience for me that actually I could then go and do a job that was going to be helping organisations achieve a purpose and be more sustainable without having had a science degree or without having the technical academic background, I thought I needed, um, and ended up then moving over to Clarasys where I lead our proposition to be fair alongside some very technical experts who have done a lot of that academic work. So we balanced each other out very nicely and I talk the good talk and, chat to people about it, which is hopefully where the English comes in very effectively.
I think the thing that's been really live for me at the moment is businesses are really thinking about what their responsibility is internally. And what they need to do for sustainability, for purpose, and then how they share that with their consumers, their customers, and their potential and future employees. And so that's the thing that I think is really live because generationally, I think, well, that's our hypothesis anyway, generationally, younger people expect more from businesses. It's no longer good enough to be producing a good product or delivering a good customer experience, it has to be thought about the full impact of that. Do we think that hypothesis is true? I'm interested to know what's your view on changing society's expectations of business. I'll go with Em first then Andy.
Generational shift in workplace values
Emily Brown: I do think it's true. I think my generation expects a lot more and they're a bit tired of I think how long it's taking to get to where we need to get to. I think looking at starting out your career, I mean, in any sector, not just in sustainability or environment, you're wanting to know there's a bit of longevity and there's reason to get into that sector. So I think it's important that businesses really are focusing on that aspect. And like dad said, I think all businesses now are looking at having a sustainability team, producing a sustainability report. I think especially when I'm looking to buy from a business or work from a business, I want to know that they're working towards tangible targets, especially to do with net zero waste. I mean, I want to have a planet to work on at the end of my career. So I think that's really important to me and my generation, definitely.
Ruth Wilkinson: Andy, what do you think you've seen? You've seen more of it, the change over time.
Andy Brown: Yeah, absolutely. So I think what's really interesting is five years ago or so, we were seeing people coming into the company at kind of lower levels in the company, really wanting, talking about not necessarily purpose, but environmental and sustainability, kind of credibility and asking questions about that. What I've seen in the last five years is that has spread across the levels. So senior people coming into the company are choosing to come because they want to work for a company that's got a purpose and they want to be part of that as well. So, yeah, I think businesses have got to become more transparent and honest about what their impacts are. And, Ruth, you mentioned that kind of in the charity sector fundamentally there to do some good, but recognizing that actually to do that good they're potentially doing some not so good. So how do you focus on that and manage that? I think, all businesses need to be more honest about that because, you know, sustainability isn't simple, despite the title of the podcast. It's really, really quite complex and the interplay, the interactions within sustainability, and particularly there's some of the social elements which have tend to be kind of hidden or in the shadow of the environmental elements are coming to the fore now. So I think the more we are honest, the more we share, the more likely we are to get people joining our organisations who buy into that and want to help to drive that forward. And it's not good enough to use that just to attract people. You've then got to create the systems within the organisation to have that feedback and to feel part of it, whether that's employee assemblies or communities or whatever, where you're not just giving information to them to keep them up to date with what you're doing, but to get challenged back and to say, no, you're focusing on the wrong thing. You're not moving fast enough. You say this, but you're doing that. So yeah, I think sustainability should be something that absolutely everybody in the company is delivering, not just head of sustainability.
Ruth Wilkinson: Totally agree with you there.
Empowering stakeholders
Ruth Wilkinson: Having learned sustainability and tried desperately to get others in the organisation, you know, involved and it being really complex is much easier as a sustainability lead to sit in a room on your own and go, right, this is the plan. So we're going to deliver it. I'm going to go and sort out these EVs. I'm going to go and sort out this waste provider. I'm going to talk about water efficiency, but actually if you spend more time and get deeper and listen to stakeholders in the organisation and really understand their perspectives and help them also see the need, then you're going to in the long run, make much more of a dent into your sustainability strategy.
Andy, you said something about the generational change and actually you're seeing more senior people coming in and being attracted to the purpose and the ability to work in that space. Why do you think that is? Why do you think people are starting to be attracted to those kind of jobs?
Andy Brown: What I've heard people say, and it may be people of a certain age who have got children or their children are growing up. Certainly, you know, And Em and I, I remember us having conversations over the dinner table, quite depressing ones saying, or you asking me questions, me having to answer, have you effed the planet up completely? And, you know, is there actually any point in trying to do anything good or is it just too late? I think there's a lot of people at my age going, is this our legacy? My child is doing GCSEs, doing A levels, getting into the job market. And what have we left behind? Is this what I want to be known for? So I think there is a bit of that existential crisis going on. I'm not naive enough to believe that that's happening everywhere across the board, but it certainly seems more prevalent in the people I've spoken to. And certainly some of the significant leaders who I've seen change, not their opinion, because I don't think there are an awful lot of people out there who are saying, right, let's just screw the planet for money. I just don't think it was on their radar. And I think it's now starting to go, oh, actually, hang on. Look up from the laptop or the zoom meeting and look at what's going on around the world. And it's what we're doing. Are we part of that? Yeah, we are. I think so.
Ruth Wilkinson: I don't think there's people saying, yeah, we don't care let's screw the planet. But I think there's lots of people saying, it's not really in my power to do anything. I operate within the system I operate within. I need to earn money. You know, I need to do that. The business world needs to go round. I've heard lots of people make those challenges about the work they might do already and not putting themselves out there to make a change, which is tough.
The individual’s responsibility
Andy Brown: Taking over the role here, but I was going to ask Em a question because I hear this point made and it quite often really annoys me that, you know, sustainability is, it's not our fault, it's not our fault as an individual, you know, governments have got to be doing more, businesses have got to be doing more. And yeah, they absolutely have. We all have, we all wear multiple hats. I'm an employee. I'm a citizen. I'm a member of the community. I'm a consumer. In each of those roles in my life, I have an impact. And so I think it's absolutely right to hold politicians feet to the flames and business leaders feet to the flames, but also as individuals. We make choices every day and we can hide behind the, Oh, well, they're not doing enough to be sustainable therefore, I don't have to. Why should I do it? Or it makes my choice harder. I just wondered from Em's perspective, do you think like that, your generation thinking like that?
Emily Brown: I mean, I don't think I do. I think like you said, through all parts of my life, I'm always thinking about the environment. And I think it's probably my biggest value I hold is trying to do the right thing. I mean, that's why I live down where I live in Cornwall, because I just love the natural environment so much, so I'm very conscious of what I do in my work life, in my home life, and how that affects the planet. But I do think it's really hard, especially being a young adult at this time, and cost of living, and I've been renting sort of my first properties outside of university and outside of student loans, and I think people get tired with like consuming in this era and trying to do the right thing but also having enough money to live because I know, you know, there's a lot of shouting that goes on down in Cornwall about pollution in the ocean and the state of our oceans and there's people I swim with in swimming groups that shout about water companies but then they'll buy all their bikinis from fast fashion brands but it's just a hard toss up between doing the right thing, and campaigning for the right thing, but also taking all those individual actions, and also feeding yourself, clothing yourself. So I think that's where people are frustrated, especially at the younger age, because not a lot of people have that money to make all the right choices, I think, if that makes sense.
Ruth Wilkinson: Yeah, I totally relate to that as well. It feels like just ever present that decision that you have to make that if I do this, it has a negative impact on the world.
Emily Brown: I think it's slightly relentless at some points. I mean, even with eating, I think ideally I'd go to a butcher's, a fishmonger's, a farmer's market and get everything. But realistically with my food budget, I can't. So it's just, it's hard because there's that voice in your head saying, well, this isn't the right thing, but things are packaged in plastic. So I think that's where it does sort of lead to the top down decisions and our politicians and governments to make that change, to make it easier.
Andy Brown: And you don't eat meat.
Emily Brown: Well, I know, but do you know what I mean? I'm making the point. I do on Christmas eat meat.
Ruth Wilkinson: Yeah, I'm a flexitarian a couple of times a year. And it's like, you know, relentless is exactly the word. It does feel relentless and I feel there's a sense of a lack of power and that there are people in power that aren't using that power to good effect and it can feel quite disenfranchising, I think.
Em I wondering, you're looking to work in the space of sustainability and obviously consume sustainably as we've just been talking about. What is it that's drawing you to companies? What are you looking for, you know, from a business that you might work for or from a business that you might spend your money with?
Seeking authenticity in organisations
Emily Brown: The main thing is for me is just quite simple, a bit like I said before, that whoever I'm working for or buying for has clear intentions, clear targets, and can show evidence that they are moving towards those and not just sort of writing about it or talking about it. I think that is the thing, needing to walk the walk if you are going to talk the talk.
And also just that there is value on each level of sort of the employment level, I think, because most of the jobs I'm going for are entry level or graduate roles and I'd want to know that my ideas have value within the organisation and that I'd have support, I think that would be really important to me. And I think especially talking about sustainability and environment, there's a lot that my generation has to say that, I mean, like in mine and dad's podcast, we talk about that all the time, that there's value in whatever job role you're in. So. That's what I'm looking for.
Ruth Wilkinson: Are you set on working in a sustainability role or would you take another role and then, as you say, bring sustainability into it wherever it's relevant?
Emily Brown: I'm looking in all avenues at the moment. I'm, similarly to you, I'm quite creative and told at school that if I did art and geography that it was going to get me nowhere. But, you know, that's where my passions lie. So I followed that. I think it's a bit frustrating. A lot of, roles in the sustainability and environment sector, they have that data, aspect and numbers aspect, which I'm not looking for really. So I definitely am looking at, I mean, joining if an organisation I think has the right values, but isn't necessarily sustainability sort of focused, I'd definitely look at joining that and yeah, weaving sustainability into what I do or helping to bring it in.
The need for pizazz in sustainability
Ruth Wilkinson: That reminded me, I went to a conference when I very first got my sustainability role and I was like, oh my goodness, I need to know what I'm doing here. So I went to a young sustainable leaders or something conference and I asked the panel, what is it you think the sector, this is, you know, the cohort of sustainability professionals out there in the world doing this stuff, what is it you think they most need? Do we need more data? Do we need more facts? Do we need more science? What do we need? And one of the respondents, I remember really distinctly, she let forward, she said, Pizazz. She said we need more pizazz? So we've got all the stats. We don't need any more of those. We've got loads of data. We've got loads of insight. We've got loads of research that's gone into what's going to happen if we do this. If we stay on this trajectory, we know what we need to change. We need some pizazz to change people's minds and get stuff done. So that's why I'm like art and creative studies are going to be the pizazz that sustainability needs.
Emily Brown: Yeah, I think we just need to engage people and pizazz is the best way to do that. So yeah.
Ruth Wilkinson: You shouldn't have to make a sacrifice if you're buying a product and you're spending a bit more money so that the true cost of that product is being accurately reflected in the money you're spending on it, not passed off on people and planet as is the case for lots of fast fashion. But it should be the case that you get something really whole out of that. It's not just about the positive impact of where your money's going, but you yourself feel that, well, the pizzazz rubs off on you. You get the view, the vision of buying that product and working in that environment.
Andy Brown: And that's what I was looking for in kind of when we decided to go ahead with this podcast. Our between the generations, podcast, you know, that's what I want. I want some pizzazz rubbed off on me to keep me going and to keep me enthused and, you know, to hold my feet to the fire. So, yeah, I absolutely, you know, you can teach skills. What I want is attitude and inspiration and excitement and those kinds of things.
Beyond the CV: Recognising potential
Andy Brown: As an employee, I'm only speaking personally and I'm not speaking on behalf of my company, but if someone sends me a CV, the thing I look at is the last page. So what do you do? What are your interests? I can't tell you the number of interviews I've had with people telling me that they're passionate about sustainability and then you say, okay, so tell me what you do and they go, uh, so I'd like to recycle. I go, no, no, no, no, no. On a Saturday morning. Okay. What are you, what are you doing? And, you know, the piece of advice I always give out to people who say, oh, how do you get into the sustainability sector? Or how do you, how do you get your first job is, you know, it's hard and the market out there as, as, Em knows at the moment, it's incredibly tough, particularly down in Cornwall, but, you know, go and demonstrate that you believe in it, that you've got something to add. So, you know, Em won't blow her own trumpet, but she has done support for fairly new sustainability driven companies, looking at the way they run their website and do marketing and stuff and giving them feedback from a Gen Z perspective on that. Like you Ruth, she went and did, she did volunteering for a charity to write their first sustainability strategy. So, you know, that's what I'm looking for. But what I would kind of plead to companies is to, you know, look beyond the CV and the fact that this might be this applicant's first opportunity for a job. Try and see beyond that and look at the potential, look at the talent, look at what you might gain from them, not just what, you know, they can give to the, the 20 bullet points you've put on a job description.
Ruth Wilkinson: Yeah, totally agree. Totally agree. It's really tough hiring, isn't it? Looking at CVs and thinking, I have no idea what this means for the actual human being that might be turning up to work with me. I think it'd be fascinating. I'm holding a hypothesis that I've heard a lot from businesses they're really struggling to recruit. And then I've heard from lots of aspiring young people who want to work in sustainability. And there's a clear mismatch there that I'm seeing. What do we think is causing that? What do we think businesses need to do to actually attract the talent to the roles that they have? What might need to change?
Flexibility, honesty and personality in job descriptions
Emily Brown: I think from my perspective, having read a lot and a lot of job descriptions is just having a little bit of flexibility and showing that there is maybe that room for a bit of personality and growth within a role. So I think I've read a lot of very similar job descriptions that don't make it sound that exciting, whereas sometimes if you make it to interview and you hear about what you'd actually be doing, it actually wouldn't be that boring. It would be exciting and you would be able to put your own bit of pizzazz on it. So from my perspective, definitely that. And just an element of trust that if you're advertising for an entry level or graduate role and I've got the degree that lines up with what you want, that I will be able to do some of the things that I've not done before. Because obviously you can't tick if it's 20 requirements you're not usually going to tick them all if you're only young. So I think if you've got a bit of experience, a bit of, well, I've got a degree, just to trust that they'll be able to follow through and do, do what you need from them and grow within the role.
Andy Brown: Yeah. I mean, I agree with that. It's back to the honesty and transparency point. So if you're advertising for an entry level job, it's got to be an entry level job. So interview people who are at an entry level, otherwise we're going to end up, and I think we probably are at a point, Ruth, and I think we've chatted about this before in that you get the same group of, not the same group of people, but, you know, I think we've got people moving sideways constantly around sustainability positions and we're not drawing the kind of next generation in. So if your job genuinely needs five years worth of experience and don't call it an entry level job, because it takes an awful lot of time, but also emotional resource to apply for those things and then get rejected. If there's no hope of, you know, getting selected for it, save everybody's time and effort and call it something different. Don't call it an entry level job. But I do think as employers, we can look at the way we recruit and the way we structure some of this entry level stuff. I mean, I've certainly seen, I'm sure you have, some people managing in a middle level senior position and you think, bet we'd get more output with two younger people. in here, and that would give them a good first kind of step on the ladder. So maybe there's something a little bit more fundamental we need to look at.
Changing mindsets about work
Ruth Wilkinson: I think that's my reflection is that it is more fundamental and almost more meta. I have a view based on my personal experience and talking to people kind of earlier in career, that's businesses are hiring for jobs that young people don't want to do. And young people want to do jobs businesses don't think are going to be profitable, I guess. And I think that's a fundamental mindset shift on the role of business in society and why we come to work. I feel like I've pursued a career because I want to be intrinsically motivated by what I get up to do five days a week, most weeks of the year. That's critical for me. I have no interest in working in a job that does not motivate me intrinsically. And I think lots of young people feel similarly, you know, value our lives and value our time. I think, and Andy, I'm looking at you because maybe you'll give me a reflection on what you see in your generations. You know, I think that hasn't always been the case. I think there's been an expectation and a mindset that we work so that we can earn enough money to live outside of work. And work is gonna be hard and drudgery and painful, and maybe we'll get some value outta it if we are lucky. But ultimately it is about kind of a means to an end to earn money. And I feel like that mindset has shifted and I think businesses aren't keeping up with that at all, both actually in how they recruit and employ people, but also in how they deliver their products and services. I think that's the same mindset that's going across to organisations that are still just thinking about profit for their shareholders and not thinking about the problems of people on the planet that they could solve through their ideas, their products, their resources, their capabilities. What do you think, Andy?
The importance of purpose and fulfilment at work
Andy Brown: I absolutely agree. I think there has been a shift and we used to kind of work to live. My personal view is that if you're anything less than 51 percent of your days aren't delivering on your purpose, you know, your personal purpose and your own passions, well, then you're in the wrong place. And for most of the time you should be up in the kind of 70%. And I don't blame anyone, you know, from younger generations, really wanting to try and make sure that they're entering a career that is going to fulfill them because, you know, you need to be fulfilled, you know, in the eight, nine hours of the working day, because that's going to be the vast majority of your young and middle aged life. My father died when he was 46, it was really, really clear in my mind that you don't know when you're going so you need to be feeling like you're doing the best that you can do every day. So, you know, it's something that's been really important in my career, not to get lost in career progression and to think about work life balance, to make sure I was at home, to make up stories for Em's bedtime, not now that she's long gone, but you know, when she was younger, you know, because that's the fuel for me to get up the next day to go and do stuff at work and tackle hard decisions and keep bashing my head against brick walls to try and get people to, to think sustainably, you know, so you got to balance stuff out.
Ruth Wilkinson: I had a story the other day and I can't remember who told it to me to quote them, but I'll anonymize the company, but there's a law firm that was the leaders that were talking to someone saying, we just can't work out what's going on with our new, what they're called in law, graduates, but they're new associates, however it works in law. I didn't do law, as you can tell. They're like, we can't work out what's going on, we keep giving them pay rises and they keep complaining about the number of hours they have to work. And we're like, no, but we'll give you more money. And, and, and they keep being like, no, but they're doing like 9am or 8am till 4am and going home and sleeping for two hours or whatever they can do once they've done. And that was just expected. I mean, that's, I think an extreme scenario, but the expectation is you come in and you work a lot of hours, a lot, a lot, a lot of hours, and you earn the money to kind of make up for that. And these new graduates or associates or whoever they're called, are just basically saying, no, I don't want to do that. Thanks. No, it doesn't matter how much more you pay me. I still don't want to work that many hours. That's just, that's the reality. And I think that exactly speaks to your point, Andy, about, you know, live your life today to be happy today and not saving for a future that might not actually, you know, you might not get. And I almost wonder if that's part of it too, because we do feel like our future is so fragile that it is really important to us that A, if we're contributing positively to that future, not being as fragile and B, that when we live day, we are getting joy and happiness out of life rather than sacrificing today for a future that, that might not be as simple as we think it is. And certainly previous generations have had stability over what their future might look like. And we're being told constantly, the future is so uncertain, so complex, there will be more instability. Just a slight existential thought to make us all feel really.
Emily Brown: I think that's the thing, like going back to talking about why my, or Gen Z, is it? Yeah. What my generation expects. I think our expectations are just so much higher, because like you said, we don't know what the future holds and how long we'll have this environment as it is. Especially, in my job search, people keep asking me, you know, why do you want to work in sustainability or in the environmental sector, expecting some complicated answer, but it's just because I genuinely love nature, love being outside. I love the planet and want to spend as much time in a healthy planet as I can. So I feel like, yeah,
Ruth Wilkinson: Isn't it? I find this just so bizarre that we haven't been able to create a ecosystem or an economic system that allows us to not create loads of problems for people and planet, but to use society's chosen vehicle for innovation, i. e. organisations, to innovate and solve problems that arise in people and planet. They would arise even if we didn't cause them and exacerbate them, which we do. Isn't it mad that we haven't created a system in which we get to live and enjoy our lives and work to contribute value back to a system that helps support the delicate ecosystems we rely on. And yet we've managed to do the absolute opposite, which is create a system which over utilizes people, abuses people, passes off true costs of products and services onto the vulnerable systems that we rely on, and then create a really inequitable society where some people have loads and lots of people have very little, we've created that and humankind has created that, which is, can we come back from that? Can we unravel all of those deep rooted views?
Andy Brown: Yeah, I'm a glass half full person. And I do believe in our species ability to adapt and change when it needs to. I do believe we can.
Reporting vs action in sustainability
Andy Brown: I think just taking that a slight tangent and it's kind of building off the comments you made earlier about, we've got all the data that we could possibly need to make the right decisions. And Em, you made that point about, you don't really see, an exciting and fulfilling career coming in and crunching numbers. You know, from a sustainability perspective. And I guess one of the things I hear a lot about now is the ESG reporting. And we think there's been this kind of surge of sustainability job opportunities out there and ESG is a bit of a double edged sword because on one hand, it is really useful that environmental social governance has got into the financial sector's mindset and they are wanting to kind of understand where their investments are having an impact and being able to report that. The negative side of that is that it's sucking up a huge amount of emotional and just simple time resource to chase numbers round. And what lots of people are anecdotally telling me is that it doesn't make a difference. So they're ticking boxes and they're passing on numbers and someone else then is ticking a box and going, oh yes, well, it's all lovely then, isn't it? And actually what's not happening is the doing stuff and the creative stuff. And you said, this is about innovation and I genuinely believe there are solutions out there to move us substantially and rapidly towards a much more sustainable economy and society, and I'm slightly worried that we're chasing numbers now, and not focusing on the, no, let's actually do it, let's crack on and do.
Ruth Wilkinson: I was at a conference the other day that the speaker said almost exactly that, where she was like, my team spend 11 months of the year reporting, collecting data from across the organisation, checking it all, quality assuring it, moving it around the spreadsheets, getting it presentable, putting it out in your reporting accounts. And then we've got two months of the year. So cool. How are we going to progress these targets we've set out? And that's where the resource is going. I think you're exactly right. I've put a ton of resources plowed into ESG reporting and good because we're more aware, but we know where we're at now. We know where we need to go. We know what we need to do to get there. We can't measure everything. It's easier for us to measure carbon for some scopes. And we now know we need to make that change and drive towards it. But businesses can't justify the resource required on that because it's not part of their regulatory demands and they're not profiting from it, which is why I think the argument for purpose driven business, which is to create profitable solutions for long term wellbeing of people on planet and not profit from creating more problems for people on planet is the most powerful one because the only way we're going to get resource into that space of solving problems, innovating to solve those problems is if businesses can profit from it. And so that hope is a way out of this. I still think it's a bit dicey and a bit dangerous to be doing it for profit reasons. That is a bit of a, stakeholder shareholder value lens, so it should really be with the intention of the solving the problem first and the profit is the outcome. But I think that is, for me, that's the way I see organisations being able to make that move away. What do you think? Challenge me if you disagree.
Andy Brown: I don't know. I don't disagree. No, I absolutely agree with you. Yeah. We have got to make that move across. And, the sooner we do it, the better. And, you know, I said, I'm a glass half full kind of person. And I said, I genuinely believe in our species ability to adapt and change to survive. But it's, you know, we're starting to get to the point of really, really needing to show that now. So the sooner we do this, the better.
Ruth Wilkinson: And once businesses start doing that, they'll create good jobs. It's not just data crunching. And you get to work in products...
Emily Brown: That's what we're looking for.
Ruth Wilkinson: And there's going to be more interesting things to do. Okay. So we're nearing the end of our time and I wanted to chat to you Em because you talked a bit about getting a job in sustainability, looking for roles for yourself. And I'm fascinated to know, so imagine you've landed your perfect job, your dream job in sustainability, you've started at the organisation, you're a few months in, what is it that you are looking for? What are your green flags from an organisation that they are walking the walk as well as talking the talk? And what are some potential red flags that organisations should think about? Because I think when you've got the job, you're really inside, you start to see it all, you know, there's no shiny reports in front of you anymore. It's the real behind the scenes. What are you looking for? And what's the risk that organisations need to keep an eye on?
Green flags and red flags in organisations
Emily Brown: I think The biggest thing for me personally, that would be a green flag, is that it's a collaborative and creative workspace, and it's not sort of just teams hold up on their own projects and own things and that everyone's working towards a common goal, and that there's synergy within the organisation. I think that's what I'd be looking for. And that my day would be varied and I would get to do a bit of everything and work out within the role, obviously, what my strong suits were and definitely looking forward to progression. I don't want to be stuck in the role I get and have no means of growing myself and helping the organisation grow and grow sustainably.
And I think red flags. Yeah, just the opposite of that. I really, I can't stand it when it's just teams working just as little units and not together. I don't know if that makes sense. I think it's just from my time being at uni because I'm a really creative person. I think I'm always thinking about the bigger picture. So doing group work and group projects, I find it really hard when people weren't willing to listen to my ideas and were very stuck on their own. So I think that's where I get that from. I hope that makes sense.
Ruth Wilkinson: Yeah, totally. And in my few jobs in this space, I've experienced a variety of those.
The challenge of hierarchical structures
Ruth Wilkinson: That chimes, I think for me in terms of what organisations do, there's a hierarchical thing for me there. It's like, you're not expected to not say something because your boss is there, or you can only share your idea with your boss and then your boss will share it with their boss and then their boss will share it with their boss. And then eventually somewhere, somewhere along the line, someone might come back and say, that was a good idea. Do you want to do it? I think that's the death of innovation, death of kind of positive employee experience.
Embracing radical transparency
Ruth Wilkinson: We talk a lot about radical transparency or radical candor as well. Like how do you share openly and transparently in the organisation? What challenges we're facing? I think that starts with leadership. Standing up and saying, here's our opportunities, here's the stuff we're really excited about, positive, but then here's the challenges and collectively, how can we overcome these? Everyone feels they've got a role to play. I think exactly as you say, the silos that organisations create means that people often work in things in isolation and duplicating effort or even contradicting each other, which is really bad. And then you can dismantle that by having that kind of transparency sharing and really strong leadership setting that out. It's really good. It's really clear. Anything you wanted to add on those, Andy, what you might have seen?
Andy Brown: Well, green flag for an organisation is obviously Ruth, that organisation understanding PAS 808, which is the standards for purpose driven organisations. So have a look on BSI's website for that or B Corp or whatever.
The importance of culture in purpose driven organisations
Andy Brown: But the thing is, for me, it's not box ticking, you've got to see the culture being lived. You've got to see purpose being owned by everybody in the company from top to bottom. And, you know, if you, you walk into an organisation and you chat to the receptionist and they are able to tell you how they're contributing to the purpose, or you're talking to somebody who's dealing with kind of operational issues on the ground, that's when you know, you're in a company that believes it, means it, is doing something about it.
Ruth Wilkinson: Which I completely agree with. And I think it's so hard to do that because it's so intangible and there's no box that can be ticked. There's no report that can be published. It is a constant evolving, organic thing, the way that the people in the organisation think and feel about that organisation. And it requires constant effort and constant cultivation and caring and nurturing. But it's so worth it, like that's going to make the bigger difference than any shiny report, probably, I think, because it's about, it changes everyone's decision making day to day and how they hold each other to account. I think it plays out in ethical decisions, plays out in the risk appetite of the organisation, the way that you navigate risk and make decisions forward against big key material issues.
Aiming for collective responsibility
Andy Brown: I mean, ultimately, wouldn't it be lovely if we don't have any sustainability professionals at all, because we're all, you know, every person in the company is partially responsible for the sustainability or purpose of the company. Now we don't have that with health and safety, so, you know, but, it would be lovely one day to think that it's got a central team, horizon scanning and thinking about how you drive things forward and making sure the governance is right. But everybody is living, delivering, innovating around sustainability and the ultimate purpose of the organisation, whatever that organisation is.
Ruth Wilkinson: I was gonna reiterate Andy's point about the BSI standard PAS 808, I think everything we've talked about in this session and recording, probably covers a broad spectrum of what's discussed in PAS 808 and what's shared. And it's a really good tool to review a really good framework to think about how is my organisation having an impact in the world, both positively and how am I mitigating that negative impact and then how are we behaving as we do that. And then the stuff you were talking about around collaboration, the way that people treat different voices. PAS 808 sets out a shared set of worldviews, principles, and behaviours for purpose driven organisations, which an organisation, anyone can read and think, how far am I living this? How far do I believe in this? And if not, what is it that's kind of driving that mindset? It's a really introspective process probably to explore that, but it's, I think a really powerful tool to help people think about it. And it's a good guide to take it forwards where it does feel so intangible and so challenging to start it, to explore that. It feels complex, but it's worth using the tool to navigate the complexity.
What would you ask a CEO to do tomorrow if you could wave a magic wand?
Ruth Wilkinson: Okay. Let's wrap up with one thing, magic wand, what would you ask a CEO to do tomorrow? And it could be in any avenue, employment, product services, purpose. What's your thing that you would really love to see an organisation doing. And I've asked you that question. I'm thinking about what my answer would be as well. Do you have a, yeah, you go.
Andy Brown: So, this is something I'm kind of thinking and grappling with at the moment in, and it kind of goes back to Em and I's podcast around between the generations, and the difficulty of getting in, getting, you know, truly entry level people into an organisation to have their first experience of work, but also for the business to gain that kind of insight. Cause I don't think it's a one way thing. It's not just a business getting a piece of work done and giving the first kind of opportunity to work. There's just so much that an organisation can learn from that next generation coming through. So I haven't got a definite thought or answer, but a conversation I want to have with our HR teams and our CEO about, okay, how do we. What are we doing to make sure that that can happen? So just thinking about, you know, if I was to go on sabbatical for six months or a year, how could they use that saving in money, not paying my wages, to allow some younger people come in for six months, so don't replace me like for like, bring in two, three younger people to give them six months experience in a, in a job. Let the person, my number two, step up and do my role and just fill in from the bottom to give benefit right the way up that kind of job hierarchy and for the business to gain some additional insight. That's a thought.
Ruth Wilkinson: Love that idea. It's a great concept. And I think people would find that quite challenging as an idea to accept the risk that might be associated with that of the loss of potential productivity that ever replacing you like for like would do.
Andy Brown: I don't know though, you know, I think we all talk about succession planning in our organisations an awful lot, and then it doesn't always happen as well as it should do because perhaps we are far too risk averse. But I think, you know, the thing that I've learned from looking at other people is that the, you don't unlock the potential unless you allow people the opportunity to do it and my approach to management of teams has always been not to micromanage, to give them as much a lead and as freedom as possible so that they can grow into it rather than try to drag them in a particular direction. So I think we could do more of that.
Emily Brown: I think linked to that is not to see people just as ticks for boxes, but as well, I think it's really interesting that when I'm looking specifically at applying for jobs within environmental sustainability conservation organisations, it's always the last bullet point is passion for the environment. It's never at the top. So I think linked to what Dad had said before. It's just maybe slightly looking at the hiring process, especially if that is your organisation's core focus to just have that as more of a focus of your hiring, if that makes sense. Just because I think that's a fundamental thing that anyone should have going into that role, because I think there's a lot like we talked about before, sort of career switching of people that have got that management experience or project experience in other sectors coming and taking entry level roles in the environmental sector because they have the tangible skills. But not the passion, the drive, the creativity behind it. So I think that's what I would say to CEOs or to hiring panels that that probably shouldn't be the last bullet point if your organisation is environmental.
Ruth Wilkinson: Yeah, I would argue any purpose led organisation. It's about the intangible shared beliefs that that person might bring in and then whether they have transferable skills rather than have done it a million times before.
My magic wand moment would be asking a CEO to take a risk and use some really deep stakeholder insights. Go and ask some stakeholders what's going on for you and use the insight to innovate, to solve some problems in people and planet. Cause I think if you can unlock a little bit of investment to go and find some ideas of ways you could solve problems in people in planet, you employ new people, you employ different kinds of people to deliver that, that have deep knowledge and context in the space that you might be innovating around and you could find new profitable ways to solve problems and that your business might be working towards. I think it's the future of business. So that's my big magic wand that I would like to see used to do.
Amazing. Well, any final reflections or thoughts from either of you you want to add?
Andy Brown: Well, it's lovely to be on the other side of the podcast. So, if you carry on in sustainability for another 25 years or so, Ruth, we'll invite you back to join our podcast.
Ruth Wilkinson: When I count as however you politely refer to the experienced generation.
Andy Brown: Senior.
Ruth Wilkinson: Senior. I did have a chat with someone the other day. They were talking about Anthropy and Anthropy have emerging leaders as a cohort to support the agenda, as in literally the agenda development, what is it the young people are looking for? And I said, Oh, I'm about to turn 30. When's the cutoff for emerging leaders? She said, yeah, I know at 30 you're an established leader. I was like, Oh, great. I'm very excited to be an established leader age 30. Yes, I'd be delighted to be delighted. And I think it's, it's so important and useful to step back and reflect about how our different life experiences bring us here and guide us through our roles and careers.
It's been an absolute pleasure having you both. Thank you for joining us so much. It was so interesting to get the different perspectives. I think generations have got fascinating different perspectives. I should have invited my dad. I'll ask him what he thinks. He'll listen to this and I'll ask him what he thinks. Maybe I'll do a follow up with him. Thanks Emily and Andy.
Clarasys: Thank you. Thank you for listening to our Simply Sustainability podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. For more information, please contact us at sustainability@clarasys.com.
