In this episode of Game Changers, host Sophie Brazell-Ng sits down with James Radford, former Chief of Staff at St John Ambulance, and Alex Wilford, Managing Consultant at Clarasys, to discuss the essentials of creating purpose-driven change across sectors.
With backgrounds spanning nonprofit leadership and purpose-driven consulting, James and Alex dive into how organisations can align purpose with impactful outcomes, sharing insights on the PAS808 framework and the power of defining “optimal contribution.” They explore purpose from multiple angles—from transforming charity work and fostering community alignment to navigating purpose-driven strategies in business.
Drawing from their involvement in Clarasys’s purpose-led initiatives and broader experiences with frameworks like PAS808 and concepts like Ikigai, the trio provides real-world advice on making purpose a central force in strategy, culture, and decision-making.
Listen here or read on for an edited transcript.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Welcome everyone back to another episode of Game Changers. Today we've got a really exciting episode with James, who I'm really excited to join us today at Clarasys on purpose. James, do you want to just quickly introduce yourself?
James Radford: Certainly Sophie, Thank you for this afternoon. So until recently, I was the Chief of Staff at St John Ambulance, and actually I'm now focused on helping organisations and leaders to successfully navigate purpose-driven change.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And I don't just have James in the room, I have Alex who's also joined us today. Alex, do you want to do a quick introduction to yourself as well?
Alex Willford: Of course. Thanks, Sophie. So I'm a Managing Consultant at Clarasys, and I lead our client work in the purpose-driven space.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And for those who haven't listened to this podcast before, I'm our host, Sophie Brazell-Ng. I am a management consultant at Clarasys specializing in people and change and host the Game Changers podcast. Really excited for today. We've had a lot of conversations leading up to this. We also don't know where this might go, so it might go off into a number of different spaces. But what we are here to talk about today is purpose.
So as with all of the podcasts, I'd just love to start off with a couple of definitions this time. So not just one. The first one I'm going to ask is what is purpose? James, do you want to start us off?
James Radford: Yeah, I think the first thing probably is what purpose isn't. Purpose is more than just a strapline.
James Radford: You can imagine that an organisation's purpose is just some words on a page, a banner up on the website. Actually, it's much deeper than that. It's an understanding of what's the difference that you're trying to make as an organisation. Works at a personal level as well. What's the difference you're trying to make in the world? How does that have the most impact? And actually, when I think of it, I think of a wonderful Japanese word called Ikigai, which is that definition of your own individual purpose, the purpose of life, the reason of being. And the weight of that is to think about what is it that you love? What is it that the world needs? What is it you're good at? And, you know, ultimately, how do you make that pay? And I think actually that's an incredible model at an individual level, but works so well at an organisation level as well in really getting to the nub of that's what we're about, that's, what's going to drive how we work as an organisation.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. Alex, do you have anything you'd like to add to that?
Alex Willford: I think that was absolutely spot on. I think to build on that, when it comes to organisations, it's really about what is your unique contribution to a problem because of who you are as an organisation. It's exactly as you say, that Ikigai concept.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. Thank you. So I know that also, Alex, you are leading our purpose work at Clarasys. Can you tell us a little bit about PAS808 and the work that we're doing in this space?
Alex Willford: Yeah, so to start with what is a purpose-driven organisation, I think the simplest and shortest definition is a purpose-driven organisation is one that solves the problems of people and planet profitably and does not profit from creating problems of people and planet.
PAS 808 is a framework of guidance that was brought out by BSI in 2022 that attempts to expand upon that definition and kind of bring it to life through essentially defining your purpose, so your goals as an organisation, and then the parameters through which you deliver that purpose. And it talks about In a nutshell, making sure that you exist to solve a problem of people and planets, and that must be, as they word it, your optimal strategic contribution to the longterm well being of people and planet. Rolls off the tongue. But it's essentially, what is the thing that, because of who you are as an organisation, you are best placed to solve? And everything that you do as an organisation should be centered around achieving that goal. That is center. So that's the first part of it.
The second part of it is ensuring that you protect and enhance the health of the systems that you rely on in order to achieve that purpose. So making sure that you're not creating positive change in one space, but actually creating massive negative impacts in another space through carbon emissions or through other negative externalities that you're creating.
And the third is what they call wise and ethical methods. And that essentially means that you are being values led. So you've defined your values and you live them in everything that you do. You rely on the best available evidence and you innovate boldly. So that is what PAS808 sets out. It's a great document. I'd recommend anyone to look at it and it kind of defines and shapes all of the work that we do with our clients in purpose.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And I know we've done a lot of work with the PAS808 team recently. Can you just summarise a little bit of what we've done as Clarasys?
Alex Willford: Yeah, so really excitingly, so PAS808 is currently a British standard made by BSI and it's now going to be the foundations of what will become an ISO standard. So internationally recognised. We held an amazing event a few months ago now to basically set out what that journey's going to look like. I think it's going to take a couple of years to get there. But yeah, really excited to see that standard go international.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. So I am not a purpose expert, but I kind of think this is why I'm really excited for this conversation, especially also because we've got yourself, James, in the room in the charity sector as well, and about how those two things align or maybe don't align as we kind of explore a little bit, here.
But I was going to say that this is really, we're at the forefront of a lot of the conversations that are happening right now. And I think something that Alex said was really interesting about the system. And ensuring, actually, we drive positive action, but don't cause issues elsewhere. And the role that organisations, and I'm actually going to extrapolate it to charities as well, just for those who aren't in that space, have in delivering on that.
So to kind of kick us off. Where I want to go, we'll start with this, is James, I would love to just understand a little bit about your career journey and what you've been doing in the charity sector and I think that'll then line us really nicely up to then understand kind of where you got to in the purpose space.
James Radford: Yeah, brilliant. Of course. So I mentioned about being at St John Ambulance. I was there for seven and a half years, variety of different roles, but very much thinking about how the organisation was operating and what it was there to do. And, you know, that meant being there during the COVID pandemic. Which was an extraordinary time of response for the charity.
I should mention, you know, St. John, for those that don't know them, leading first aid charity in the nation, delivers first aid training, a leading provider of healthcare, volunteering opportunities, and also youth programs. And being there and really understanding what the organisation was about was a critical part of how this extraordinary delivery happened during COVID.
And actually part of the journey within the organisation was, we went so far ahead of the pandemic, and, no one knew a pandemic was coming, but really understood, I think, those four dimensions I mentioned earlier, really understood what was St. John's USP, what was the thing that we had the skills for, and really understood the value of clinical volunteering. So the training of members of the public, to have these extraordinary skills to a high standard to then deliver in communities was something really special. And I think we'd really latched onto that and wanted to enhance that. And in many ways, the pandemic came along and answered the question of what does the world need and align some of those questions. I'm not sure we'd necessarily answered those questions ourselves fully yet.
And then kind of post pandemic, it became about what does this then mean when there's not a pandemic going on? What does purpose really look like? What is this organisation? And really understanding it as a, you know, 150 year old institution, lots of different things, lots of different people. It had done a world of different activities over time and really pinning down, but actually it's its presence in communities. It's this ability to train members of the public to do something extraordinary, either as volunteers or in the moment in their community and really latching onto that gave this sort of renewed sense of purpose coming out of the pandemic, difficult times ahead, like difficult challenges they had to face. But I really do believe that homing in on that idea of community first aid was a really important step for the organisation and one that hopefully will serve them well into the future.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah. I remember hearing about all the work that you guys were doing at the time and It's an old charity and actually in this instance you were very much at the forefront of absolutely everything that was going on worldwide as well.
I think, Something that you mentioned there was a renewed sense of purpose, which I think is really interesting to hear, especially when you think of something like St. John, where you presume they understand their purpose really well, and then there was a situation in the world where, you know, it showed everybody what purpose, we were all aligned, with it. Then actually we move into another stage where we're actually now out of the pandemic and COVID and then you've just said, and now where is our purpose? I think that's quite interesting about how it maybe is ebbed and flowed and actually the alignment behind it. To that point though, I would just love to know, like, what does purpose mean to you? Why is that important in that aspect?
James Radford: So it matters to me at a deeply personal level. Long ago, I decided that I really wanted my career to be about making a difference in the world. And actually before St. John, I spent a decade or more working in the sports industry, working in sport development with a particular focus on, you know, overcoming inequalities in access, overcoming inequalities in opportunity to take part. Why was it the talent pipelines were so narrow? Why was it there were so many people who felt that sport and physical activity wasn't for them, felt rejected by it, by their experience as a young person? And actually really then kind of helping a sector to understand who these other audiences might be, these people who wouldn't turn to them naturally. For me, that was important, it had for some others, it was part of a transformative effect within the sector around, we have to think more deeply about who we impact and how, and who we're here for. And I think that idea of purpose really then drives you to think more creatively, to really understand different people.
I love that at St. John, I worked with a fabulous Chief Operating Officer who was the pioneer for that organisation in bringing the patients into the boardroom.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: What a refreshing concept, bring your consumers, customers, you know, patients into the boardroom.
James Radford: In there. It's a very simple model that was every board meeting would start with a patient's story. Sometimes by video, sometimes read out, but actually, you know, here is someone whose life has been saved. I literally had a cardiac arrest and actually this is how that saving took place. And this is some of the learning actually about it doesn't always go right, what can we learn from it? But at the outset, it would reconnect the organisation. And it built on, actually the organisation had long started board meetings with a reflection from one of the trustees, who would take into account all of the things that were on the agenda, and bring some sort of aspect around maybe something going on outside in the world, just to create that, you know, look outside of yourself feeling, not, we've got important work to do, we've got to focus on our finances, our governance, our risk.
We're going to be a little bit focused downwards and that's important in governance and running an organisation, but do you know what, if you miss the opportunity to look outside of yourselves, and for me, purpose is in a large part about looking outside yourselves to the very point that you're there. The point is not just to do the job right, it's to ask you the question, are we doing the right thing?
Sophie Brazell-Ng: What a wonderful rephrasing, are we doing the right thing? Another thing that really struck me with what you said there, and I definitely urge any board members or people that are going into of that kind, making big decisions to bring that connection is the word that you use to actually what you are doing, like bring that story, start with that story, so it is less about the finances, it's less about the risks. To begin with, we're actually contextualizing it and the things that we're doing and what we're trying to achieve, because it will help you think in very, very different ways. Look up and outside of the boardroom or the windows of the office that you are in.
James Radford: Yeah. And I look at one story that really has stuck with me for a very long time.
I remember we introduced a lot of kind of behavioural thinking into sports participation, really kind of how to, how to build programs that would do more than just nudge, but actually help support individuals into participation. It led us to talk to a whole load of different sort of experts about it. And I'll never forget the story one told of major charity, one that was kind of, condition specific, one of those charities that really focused on one medical condition.
And they told the story of, uh, they were approaching a big milestone in how many years they'd existed. And they got everybody together, all the staff, and they'd got some other people in the room as well, some stakeholders, various others, including beneficiaries. And they were having this debate around how should we mark this milestone? And there's lots of ideas around what have we achieved, lots to celebrate, and ideas started to flow out about what it should be kind of celebratory and a party feel and all of this came through. And you can imagine the energy in the room. It kind of springs off each other. And there was a very quiet voice that eventually other participants noticed, and the voice was quiet because actually the condition meant there was no shouting and the room fell silent and everyone turned to hear what the person who actually was the beneficiary of the charity, the person actually living with the condition, had to say. And she said very simply, I don't want a celebration. I don't want you to be here in 50 years time. I'd like you not to be needed by then. And the whole dynamic change, because instead of these are the things we do and everything we do has a positive impact. All the activities are great. This is a wider thing in charities. There's so much good work happening. Is it helping deliver the ultimate purpose and it rerouted that organisation back in. No, we've got to be about our actual purpose here, which is we'll stop when the job is done. And I think that power, and it comes from having the right people in the room, and then remembering even after a false start to listen to them, and then connecting to that deeper memory of why you're here.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Why you're actually here.
Yeah. It's like, well done, we've made some really great successes and everybody wants to celebrate. Really important, yeah. But actually when you look up and out to the bigger picture, where is that getting us? How's it connected to that intended purpose? I think that's such a perfect example.
I hadn't thought about it in that way before. As you're talking about this, this next question is probably going to sound really silly, but I'm still going to ask it. So bear with. Why is being purpose-led important to charities? For those who can't, no one can see, but James has just given a huge, massive smile in response to that question.
James Radford: The start is what is obvious, duh. Charities, unlike most organisations, are found, have to be founded with objects. They have to actually have a purpose to exist. And it's part of how they're regulated. Like, you know, how to account is, are you doing anything with that? And I think, you know, I've spent a lot of my time working with older organisations, even back in sport, you know, the FAs of this world, the RFUs, like these, these are institutions that have been around for a long time. Actually, you can be doing lots underneath the very broad brush framework that your objects allow, and a lot of it can be good. But what's the, I think to Alex's great description, what's the optimal contribution that you could make to the wider societal needs of people and planet? The optimal contribution. And really asking that question, that takes you to a brilliant place.
I think of that clarity we had at the start of the COVID pandemic. The clarity of, we're the only organisation with a fleet of ambulances, trained volunteers, able to drive them. We're the only people with these clinical skills who can add that particular value. We went into it knowing exactly what to say yes to and what to say no to. And we said no more often than yes when people said, can you help with, can you help with. We went, no, we were singularly focused on our optimum contribution. Exactly right. And said, look, there are others. Brilliant thing, Alex mentioned about this, looking outwards, the systems, we were part of a system.
There were other charities, brilliantly able, Red Cross, the RVS, they're brilliantly able to do some of those.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And you can point them in that direction.
James Radford: Precisely right, and playing that optimum role. That's so powerful about the work that Alex has described.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yep. And when you link it back to the system, you know, we know what our purpose is, but this is not the optimum thing that you've asked us for.We are part of a greater system, though we're all trying to achieve a greater good here. We will pass you to the right people that can help you. I think that's awesome. Which, when you think about businesses, that's actually a bit of a challenge because people just want to say, yes, it becomes a little bit of a money grabbing type of thing.
James Radford: Yeah, although I wouldn't shy away from the challenge of charities of doing that too, is that, you know, finances are even tighter in the charity world than they will be in the business world. Actually, someone's offering you the opportunity to do something, and there's probably a revenue stream with that. Goodness, how, how do you turn down a revenue stream? Being strict on purpose is a really, really difficult thing to do. And actually, just because everyone imagines that charities are purpose-driven, they are to an extent. But the pressures commercially, financially, and so forth. Actually, they can stand in the way just as they do within a business world.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah. I'm going to come back to something that you put into that or drip-fed into the next bit of the conversation I want to go into. But Alex, I want to ask you a question to look at the other side of it. Why is being purpose-led important for businesses?
Alex Willford: Honestly, I think I could talk for 45 minutes just on that question, so I'll try and be brief.
You can look at this from inside out, so the business perspective and outside into the world perspective. Taking the world perspective, the challenges that we face as, you know, societies are big and complex enough that governments, charities, individual organisations can't solve them on their own, and they necessarily require the business world to A, get stuck in and B, collaborate with different types of organisations in a way that we haven't seen before.
The more self interested business reason why being purpose-led is important for businesses is I think fundamentally what has got business success in the past won't necessarily get them success in the future. There's a lot of things pushing or pulling businesses towards purpose like ESG legislation getting tighter, increasing complexity and the pace of change, attrition and employee engagement that you touched on on James. Maintaining relevance. I mean, the corporate world is becoming increasingly politicised. Alison Taylor talks about this a little bit in her book Actually Higher Ground, which is really, really fascinating. And purpose is a way to navigate that complexity, navigate that politicisation and polarisation. In a way that is authentic and that people can get behind. And I also just think businesses are made up of humans, right? And humans perform better, are happier, are more motivated and engaged when they are working in a purposeful environment. And also, purpose-driven organisations do just outperform non purpose-driven organisations as well.
So, there are so many reasons why it might be something that organisations are coming at. It can be hard to get to a coherent and concise answer but hopefully that gives a flavour of all of the different forces that are operating and pushing and pulling businesses towards purpose.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing, I think there's no doubt that purpose is incredibly important both for the charity sector and the business sector because actually it's about people and sweeping all the other things aside, optimal contribution, connection and bringing people through that. You are going to succeed and we're all supporting each other in that system to succeed, which is, I'm pulling different things from what you said, but actually all together that's something that's really powerful.
Punchy question here then, James, because we are sat here saying purpose is incredibly important. Are all charities purpose-led?
James Radford: Yes, but not fully, not always. And look, there are extraordinary leaders in the sector. There are extraordinary organisations. Actually, it's a reflection of just how tough it is to be a charity. And with all of those pressures, what comes is often a focus on activity and doing good as much as
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I've literally just written do good in my notes.
James Radford: Yeah, that's exactly right. So doing good isn't the same as achieving that ultimate impact. And you think about the system in which charities operate that, you know, actually no charity is under any obligation to deliver any impact reporting. Which may sound odd, but they have to set out how activities they're doing meet their objectives, so very much at that level. And many charities are fabulous about setting out how are we doing on that big purpose, that impact journey we're going, but there's no obligation to do so. So it's a system that favours, doing good works more than having a profound impact against purpose. Are you doing the right thing?
Back to that comment as well. So, that it isn't everywhere and really driven isn't about blame and fault. It's actually, these are the circumstances. How do you turn down that contract when it's, what's the mechanism whereby you're going to do that? But I do think it's an opportunity.
I mentioned about that clarity of thought at the start of COVID, that ability to say no, that ability to find your place within a system, that ability to collaborate more. Goodness, it's a sector that needs to keep going on that journey of collaboration. There's some really exciting opportunities with the new government. Talk of a refresh of the covenant. I don't think I'm going to call it the covenant anymore, but that relationship between public sector and the impact sector and how that could be much richer. Those things will drive so much better when you have organisations that have deeply thought about what our role is within this, what's our best way of doing that. And you mentioned about people, that actually that route to finding that is often an engagement activity with your people, both paid and of course in the charity sector, voluntary.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And the reason I wanted to ask that prickly question is power of purpose. I'm sure someone else has coined that somewhere, but, you know, rolling off the tongue right now. The power of purpose, we're all in agreement here, is incredibly important. And it's really hard to say to a charity, when we all know that we are trying to do good, that you are not aligned to your purpose or you can do better by becoming purpose-driven because the reaction you're going to get will be, well, we are. It's quite a tricky conversation to have because you don't want to turn around and say, Oh, you're not doing the right thing.
James Radford: Yeah. And I think that's where I'm cautious in saying it's yes and no in these aren't charities who are not driving towards that impact that they're seeking. It's more that it's very natural over time for there to be a bit of mission creep, a bit of kind of leakage, a bit of, you know, all of the other pressures that are going on in that sector. So I think it's about making the time to stay connected the whole time to what are we trying to do and what are we uniquely placed to do.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And help you do it better.
James Radford: And help you do it better and how to make, an organisation like a charity operate at every level with that real alignment, that real effectiveness. I think of, you know, the best ones of course have this really close connection with the people they're serving, often right down at a community level. Who knows best what community need is? Who knows best what that need is in the world? It isn't going to necessarily be those who are sitting around a board table, around an executive table. So how to align an organisation, or create the power for them to do good, at that grassroots community level where most of the impact really happens.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, it just struck me as such a hard concept to bring to a charity in that aspect because of course you're trying to do good but we can help you do it better.
James Radford: You're right and I think that's true but then I think back to those fundamental questions. What are you good at? What is needed in the world? What do you love and how do you make it financially viable? I mean, they're not that dissimilar to the basic strategy questions that the big consultancies have been asking for decades. The one distinction, I think, is that question - what does the world need? And the depth you need to apply to understand that question properly.
That's the breakthrough one. And I think of the amazing work that is done in charities that have made a leap like this by their insight teams by, you know, I'm a big fan of scenario planning and futures thinking and really asking yourself big questions, getting really diverse thinking into an organisation to answer that question, because I think it unlocks then that piece around, you know, who are you within this?
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And this next question goes to you both, actually, following on from what we've just shared there, James, is what happens then when purpose and people are not aligned.
Alex Willford: It can be anything from confusion around who are we as an organisation? What do we stand for? And therefore, how do we make the right decision? Through to straight up disillusionment, and attrition if you're in an environment where the purpose of the organisation and the purpose of the people working within it is not aligned, and certainly not the level of performance that you can achieve when you have that coherent thread which just ties everything together all the way through from, you know, your purpose, your strategy, the impact that you're going to deliver against that, and then what every single person in that organisation is doing to serve that purpose. And I think that's the superpower. And if it's not there, you're not making the most of your purpose.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Really well said. James, anything you want to add?
James Radford: I'd just add actually that there are a couple of symptoms of it, I think that you see in there, they help bring it to life. One is what's the response of boards and those in charge of organisations when they see the symptoms of a lack of alignment, actually it's often to reach for control, so actually I, I no longer trust that the right things will happen. So I'm going to put control and the irony of course, is the control is going to strip away actually that connection with purpose even more. And the other behaviour I've talked to is around this idea of learnt helplessness. And, that in organisations where it aligns, I think you find all the way down, people feel like they have the power to do their role, to make their impact in alignment with what the organisation's all about. And when it doesn't happen, learned helplessness creeps in in every walk of life and everything gets pushed higher and higher up. I can't make that decision. I don't know what I'm just going to go upstairs. And of course, that's debilitating for delivering anything. It slows everything down. And of course, the people who really suffer in a charity context are those on the front line who aren't then getting the services that they need. And I think those are the things that happen.
And I think it's why it matters. Interestingly, the answers that people reach for, as I say, are often the wrong answers to get through it. But there is courage in taking a leap into, well, how, how do we do this differently? How do we think about giving the right tools to people so that they can operate in a purposeful environment.
Alex Willford: And one of the symptoms of that manifesting from an external point of view, not just internally, is that you can come across as inauthentic. If you don't have that alignment, then your stakeholders, whether it's beneficiaries as a charity or customers as a business, can sense that you're not lining up from a purpose point of view. And that's going to hurt you.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Can you identify if a business or a charity is not aligned to its purpose? Is there any, anything that's telltale? There might not be.
Alex Willford: From a business point of view, I think it's fairly obvious when an organisation talks a lot about purpose, but none of their core business activity is in pursuit of their purpose. So there's a disconnect between what is being said and what is being done and the purpose is being linked to maybe CSR activities on the side. That is great and it delivers value but it's not being purpose-led because it's not core to who you are as an organisation.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: You might have to explain what CSR is.
Alex Willford: Corporate social responsibility, so doing good as an organisation outside of your core business remit like volunteering and things like that.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: It all goes back to that authenticity piece. It actually becomes quite obvious, particularly in a business setting, maybe less so in a charity setting, but in a business setting, it's really quite obvious where what you're doing, if it's misaligned with your purpose, or you're not living your true purpose, because you can see that in what's happening.
Alex Willford: But it's really hard. It's hard to do well. And I think you can sometimes get punished for it. I mean, I love the example of, I think it was Lego who announced that they were going to move to plastic-free bricks and then did the research that was required, realised that actually that was going to be worse for the planet. And so rolled back on it. And they took a bunch of flack for rolling back on their sustainability commitments, but actually they were doing the purpose-led thing. And acting on best evidence and doing the right thing. But it was being authentic and making the hard decision. So sometimes it is more difficult to tell, but from a pure business model point of view, I think you have to look at who is delivering products and services in a way where you can clearly draw a line between what they say they're about and what they're doing.
James Radford: Yeah, I don't think it's much clearer in the business setting that there is the possibility of like real misalignment. I think it's great in charities. And I think actually, this is a build for charities and about how to really enhance the role that they play in society. It's not as I say, I don't think there are charities out there that are doing this wrong. I think it's what's the next level that allows both, a richer story of impact to potential supporters, a more focused effort in the services provided to really meet beneficiary needs, and I think it's that next build and, you know, there's fabulous work that happens every year to review the kind of the top hundred charity annual reports. A called Daniel Chan leads that and it's always amazing to see what comes back in terms of the development of the impact storytelling and those charities that have deeply kind of connected the whole narrative of their year around impact and purpose is very different to a, well, we've got various things we have to include in an annual report. And I think that internalizing of it, that's probably the, you know, it gets closer to intrinsic motivation, which is of course what purpose is all about.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Super interesting. I'm going to move us on to the next phase of the podcast as we go through all of these sections in these podcast sessions, I like to end with some practical takeaways for folks. And it's actually probably quite difficult because it's a really big concept that we're talking about here. So practical takeaways might be harder to come up with or share. But for those who are sat there listening and thinking, Hmm, I maybe don't know what my purpose is or I think we could do a better job to identify our purpose. Is there any where you would start? Where can I start to identify or understand my purpose.
James Radford: What's always struck me is the power of the people who are closely associated with and connected with an organisation, particularly with a charity. And that can be alumni or beneficiaries or past beneficiaries.
I've come from a health setting, so there were families of patients as well to consider. It can be your volunteers and your employees. It's your wider partners. There's a rich array of people who have a story to tell about the organisation. And if you've been here any length of time, those stories will actually go back in time.
I remember Sir John had a centenary of cadets, so young people wearing a uniform delivering in their communities, not just learning skills, but actually delivering. Extraordinary young people. And there was a wonderful project. You can hear about it online, of the voices of cadets through the ages of their experiences. And actually they're telling a story of purpose and going and creating the space for those conversations, for people to tell stories about what matters to them, what makes them tick, what brings them joy, what motivates them. It's an incredibly powerful way of just beginning to reconnect with "and what is this all about?" Will that deliver you a really neat kind of solution to this question? No, but it will also avoid the thought that purpose emerges from a boardroom in one conversation with some people who then do some wordsmithing. This is about the very heartbeat of an organisation. So go where the heartbeat is and that is its people and the people affected by it.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Listen, connect are things that are coming out.
James Radford: Very much so.
Alex Willford: I think that's wonderful and I love that you brought out the wordsmith statement because I think when we're talking about purpose here we're not talking about the seven word statement which talks about a better world that we all want to live in that goes on the wall, right? It's about what sits underneath that. It's the meat and bones.
I would actually go back to what you were talking about earlier, James, around how you see the world around you and purpose being almost a lens through which you see the world that's a bit different to BAU, certainly in a business.
So I would say, start with some questions. Who do we see as an organisation? Who don't we see? Who could we see if we looked differently? And who do we think that we see? But actually we're just seeing our own self-interest reflected back at us. Answering those questions might reveal some things that could be useful inputs into what you think your purpose could be.
And then I would also say, what are the issues, the challenges that are happening in the world around us that we are material to. Not that are material to us, that we are material to. That we have a role to play in solving. And hopefully, by asking yourself those questions, you'll identify an array of challenges that you could have a meaningful role to play in solving, and then it's about identifying which one you're best placed to work with.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I love that set of questions. So I'm now sat here thinking I'm armed with my set of questions. I'm ready to go. I'm going to go and talk to people and say, I think we need to understand our purpose a little bit better. And here's the activity that I've got that we're going to do.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: What happens if others turn around and say, no, or I don't understand what you mean. Is there a great way to explain purpose or the importance of finding it for those who aren't bought in?
Alex Willford: I don't know if there's a great way. I mean, for me, this all comes down to world views. So referencing PAS again sets out a section on kind of the world views of a purpose driven organisation. And it's a set of shared beliefs that you have, which enable you to then go on the journey of becoming purpose driven.
And I think it's really hard to progress authentically if you don't all share the same worldviews. Like, you know, the world is under severe and urgent threat. Business has a meaningful role to play in solving the problems of people and planet. These are challenges that you're not going to get through unless you can align on those worldviews. And that's really hard because changing people's worldviews takes a lot of time, right? These are intrinsic beliefs that we have about the role of business in the world. But I think it's really important that we don't come at it from a judgmental or an I'm right, you're wrong position. It's really important to be open, curious, learning, understanding, and open minded so that, you know, everyone is willing to share and understand and everyone goes at their own pace.
So I don't think there's an entrenched methodology, but just be patient, use the support that you have, find little pockets and build on those.
James Radford: So I guess I'd add a couple of maybe practical things. One is the, so there's some pioneering work in the charity sector around impact, led by a guy called Matt Stevenson Dodd, who pioneered it when he was Chief Executive of Street League, about we should be more transparent about the impact that we're having, why can't we do that as a sector? We're going to show it, and that includes where we don't do a very good job. Like incredibly powerful because otherwise you're really not telling a good story. And actually you can't get close to your purpose if you're only telling about the good stuff.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yep. Authenticity again.
James Radford: Precisely right. And you know, I remember years ago talking to him, in a very simple exercise, which is take your senior leaders and get them all just to really simply write down why are we here. And the choice of words they use and the difference in that, and sometimes you get, you hit lucky and you'll find an organisation where everyone broadly describes things in exactly the same way. It's pretty rare. And in that exercise, you suddenly open up a possibility of a conversation. Now that's a door being open that leaders can choose not to walk through, but it is quite a good way of kind of bringing to life. And I love that that's one of the models that he uses to such good effect.
I think the other is the, it's the power of the work I was describing about engaging with people, engaging with stakeholders. So even if you've got a reticent, people aren't really sure they want to go down the purpose conversation yet. Don't undervalue the power of doing those types of exercises for internal engagement anyway. Like creating those forums where people can express about what they're looking for in their place, it's going to produce a whole lot of outputs. Maybe you begin the work and then you bring those insights into a forum to try to start that conversation again. It doesn't have to be: we're going to define our purpose. Here's the program of words. It's really not going to work anyway. And anyway, no one ever said, how are you going to define my purpose? It's not, you know, that's doesn't happen that way.
Alex Willford: You said creating the forums there. And I think that you've absolutely touched on the key point. It's making space for people. I think we have to call out at this point, Blueprint for Better Business, who are a charity, who do exactly that. They create space for leaders, organisations to go on that journey themselves and are doing really, really great work. So yeah, shout out to them.
James Radford: Definitely. And the other thing is, look, I think there isn't a step by step guide to doing this. Unfortunately, it'd be great if there was.
But I think the trap you can fall into, particularly with senior leaders, particularly with the pressures of time is, Oh, this is an esoteric exercise. Oh, your navel gazing again. This is, and you know, who's bringing it to the table. So make sure that the right person is bringing it to the table, but also think about where does this go next? So what's the next practical step that you'll take after this first conversation? Cause I think even like I think of engagement with volunteers and with others, you can get this wrong actually, by trying to have the conversation more than once or twice, people are a bit bored of it actually. They're like, no, we've already had this conversation. Can we move on to the next conversation on the basis of what we've already talked about? Just that bit of momentum becomes really important.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. Sadly, I'm going to have to start bringing us to a close. I have a funny feeling though this isn't going to be the last time we're going to be talking about Purpose, because there are still so many questions that I would want to ask.
But for anyone that's been listening to this and as we've gone through today's chat, I'd just like to know from each of you, what is the one big takeaway that you've had from this conversation in terms of how we've been exploring purpose? Alex, I'm going to start with you.
Alex Willford: I mean, so many to choose from, but I think the one that always sticks with me is around purpose being a way to just see the world around you differently and see it in a non self centered way. So seeing the world as it really is, not as kind of you see it with, with yourself in the middle of it.
James Radford: It's a very similar theme actually, but despite the pressures of every day, the demands being placed on the time, the kind of how are we going to survive sometimes, actually, this is really a conversation about the vital importance of looking outside yourself. As an organisation, your role in the world, but also your role within systems. And I think for charities it's more pressing than ever.
Desmond Tutu famously talked about when are we going to stop pulling people out of the river and go upstream and find out why they're falling in in the first place. And I think charities in this country today are right at the front end of seeing, the end result of a whole load of things happening that aren't great upstream. And for charities to have that bit of space, that bit of support to leap outside of themselves, to go upstream, to think about the systems, to think about the collaborations that come because they know who they are. In that context of the overall environment, I think there's an amazing opportunity to work with a new government that wants that partnership. The sector now needs to be really ready for that partnership with that utter purpose-driven focus.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And for me, as I've been listening to you guys, it's something about being part of something bigger. Really listening and connecting and understand what it's all driving towards as part of a greater system is come through for me. I'm now going to be sitting there and thinking about what my purpose is all weekend now. So just really quickly as we close, Alex, you touched upon blueprint for better business. Just between the both of you, are there any key resources, books that you would point people towards if they're really interested in learning more about purpose?
Alex Willford: So I think there's a few off the top of my head.
So as we mentioned at the start, PAS808 is a great document that just so coherently outlines what it means to be purpose driven in an incredibly rigorous way. Blueprint website also has plenty of resources. For people who are more interested in getting practical, there's a community of practice called the Purpose in Practice Community, or PIPC, which we're a part of, which is co run by Blueprint as well. That's fantastic.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: James, is there anything that you would point people towards?
James Radford: I'd encourage people who aren't familiar with it to go and just have a bit of a play with what Ikigai really means. Just explore that concept, just to understand it a bit more, because I think that gets you into this at a personal level and really helps on an organisational side.
And actually I've been rereading, reinventing organisations. So by Laloux of late, and I, that's a decade or more ago. But some of what's being talked about there, his concept of teal organisations, but the idea of self management, a lot of it stems from that clarity around purpose. That's what drives a lot of these organisations. And there's extraordinary things that come from that for both their impact, but also for the people critically. Who work there and the way that they feel about their working life. And it's a really good to kind of step back into that.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. And James, for people who are wanting to get in touch with you and find out more about you, is there a really good way to do that?
James Radford: Yeah, the best way is probably, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm jamesradford30. I think that must relate to how old I might be when it all began. It's no longer 30 sadly, but yeah, no, you can find me there and you can get in touch through that means. I'd love to have a chat. You can see me posting occasionally about stuff that's purpose and other topics related.
But, yeah, reach out for a chat. Let's explore how we might help develop your leadership in this space.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. And Alex, is there a great way to contact yourself?
Alex Willford: Yeah. Likewise on LinkedIn. So Alex Wilford, if you're interested in talking about how to bring your purpose to life, whether it's through setting out an ambition, purpose led strategy and business model creation, or designing an organisation to be purpose led through culture and operating model, love to chat about this stuff. So do get in touch.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome. And with everything, we will put all of our links and all of how to contact our lovely guests today in the show notes. If you'd like to contact Clarasys, you can contact us via our website, myself directly on LinkedIn, Sophie Brazelle Ng, or via the Clarasys email that we will put in the show notes.
A big thank you to those listening today and joining us for a really insightful conversation about purpose. Looking forward to seeing you in the next one.
Clarasys: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Nevermind the Pain Points. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your favorite podcasting app or site.
We would love your feedback, so please leave a review or drop us an email at podcast. clarasys. com. And for more information about us, visit our website, clarasys.com.
Guest bio:
James is an established charity leader, most recently as Chief of Staff at St John Ambulance, where he was part of leading the charity’s significant response to Covid-19 and developing its community-focused purpose. He is passionate about using engagement, insight and coaching to support organisations and fellow leaders in navigating purpose-driven change. He previously worked across the sport sector, helping organisations to increase their focus on growing participation and tackling inequality, and developing government sport strategy.
Follow Sophie on LinkedIn here
Follow Alex on LinkedIn here
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Contact us at podcast@clarasys.com
by the British Standards Institution: A framework that defines what it means to be a purpose-driven organisation.
Ikigai: A Japanese concept of purpose, focusing on the balance between what you love, what you’re good at, what the world needs, and what you can be paid for.
Purpose in Practice Community (PIPC): A collaborative community to help organisations implement purpose in practice.
Learn more about this charity, which supports leaders and organisations in becoming purpose-driven.
“Reinventing Organisations” by Frederic Laloux: Explores the power of purpose in building self-managed, purpose-driven organisations.
READ: What is PAS 808 and why does it matter?
READ: Purpose-led strategy: What is it, and how do you deliver on it?
LISTEN: How to create a purpose-led strategy - PODCAST
LISTEN: Unlocking business potential through purpose - A Blueprint for Better Business - PODCAST