In this episode of "Nevermind the Pain Points," join host Sophie Brazell-Ng, alongside guests Suzie Mossman-Monk and Sarah Partridge as they discuss Imposter Syndrome in the workplace. Suzie, a chartered psychologist, and Sarah, a leadership consultant, share their professional insights and personal experiences with this common psychological phenomenon.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Nevermind the Pain Points. And this is the Game Changers section of this. I'm joined again today by the wonderful Suzie and Sarah. Do you guys just want to quickly introduce yourselves?
Sarah Partridge: Hi, I'm Sarah Partridge. I'm the founder and director of the Change Academy, which is a consultancy primarily working in the leadership development and coaching space as well as working with organisations on building and articulating strategy.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Awesome.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: And I'm Suzie Mossman Monk and I am a chartered psychologist and I work at Clarasys as the in house performance psychologist.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And I'm Sophie Brazell, the host of this podcast and also a consultant at Clarasys specialising in the people and change space. So today, what are we looking at?
We're going to be looking at, how do I overcome imposter syndrome in the workplace. I know this is something that Suzie is really excited to talk about. I think you said just before we started recording this, Suzie, this is something I talk about all the time. So, I'm really excited to hear what you've got to share.
And then hopefully Sarah and I can share a little bit about our experiences with imposter syndrome in this session as well.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: So as we always start off, and I'm going to look to Suzie for this one, is with definitions. So what is imposter syndrome, Suzie?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: I guess, as you mentioned, Sophie, it's something that everyone can probably relate to at certain points in their life.
And I guess the loose definition is a doubting of your abilities, a feeling like a fraud, that kind of sense of, “Oh my God, I don't know what I'm talking about. Why am I here? How am I here? How am I in this position?”
Those kind of sensations of just, I guess, feeling like a fraud is a nice way of explaining that somehow you've managed to get to this position and you have no idea how and you have nothing to back it up, is how I would define it.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah, I think the only thing I'd add is that constant feeling of like, that you're going to get found out. That, you know, that, that persona that you've developed to get to where you are is, you know, suddenly going to come crumbling down and someone's going to find out who the real you is and the real you is lacking in all of these great things.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Interesting. Really great definitions there. I think it's quite funny. I was just thinking about the imposter syndrome at work and then also I was thinking about imposter syndrome in life and thinking sometimes, “Oh my gosh, I actually am an adult and I have no idea what I'm doing.” I was only taught at school how to do Pythag, which obviously I've never used since then.
So it is called imposter syndrome though. Why is it called a syndrome, Suzie?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Yeah, it's a good question. And it's what I've always called it when people kind of show up with these feelings of fear of being found out or feeling like a fraud. And actually, it never used to be called that. So, initially it was called imposter phenomenon, which I actually much prefer.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: It's another word I can't spell. Well, yes. Psychological safety. Phenomenon.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Yeah, it's also quite hard to say. I'm quite proud that I nailed that the first time. And I think that's, it's really interesting. From what I can tell, it has just merged into being interchanged with syndrome, imposter syndrome initially, and then that's kind of taken over.
I wonder if my kind of very just solo perspective of it is because I think it can feel really, really intense for people. It can feel very real and it can feel like a really significant challenge or issue that they're facing. But I think actually kind of reflecting that maybe we do ourselves a disservice by calling it a syndrome, because actually feeling out of your depth, feeling a little bit like you maybe don't belong where you are because you're doing something really difficult is a very normal human experience.
And by labelling it a syndrome, are we actually kind of creating something more out of this very normal human feeling and experience?
Sarah Partridge: Yeah. And I think I would add to that as well. When we call it a syndrome, we're putting all of the emphasis on the individual, right? So, we're saying, you know, Sophie, you've got imposter syndrome, therefore it is pathological to you.
And actually imposter syndrome could be created by the business culture you're working in or by systematic bias that you're facing as an individual or whatever it might be. It's not just the responsibility of the person who's struggling, feeling like an imposter, and when it's called a syndrome, it kind of makes it quite, you know, it's almost like a blaming word.
It's like, it's your fault, you've got imposter syndrome. It's like, well, hang on a minute. We're all, you know, we're working in complex environments here where there's a lot of different factors that create our response to the environment that we're in.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, it's actually funny you're both saying that. As soon as I say the word syndrome and what it means to me, it almost sounds like I've got something medically wrong with me.
But actually what we're just saying is it's a normal human thing for us to feel and allows us to respond to things potentially in the right way.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: So why is imposter syndrome an issue in the workplace?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Yeah. So from my experience of working with people who kind of experienced this phenomenon...
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Are we going with that now or are we going with imposter phenomenon? I can't even say it.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Yeah. If we can, if we can nail it. Well, who have these experiences, it's the blocker that people then put on themselves. So it's the not going for certain opportunities, not putting yourself forward for certain roles, maybe not speaking up or sharing your opinion or your views because you have this sense of, oh, if I say something wrong, people are going to find me out and people are going to not respect me.
And they're going to realise that I don't know what I'm talking about, or I don't want to go for that role because they're obviously not going to give it to me because who am I? What are my experiences? So, it's that kind of the blockers that people put on themselves and the limitations that people then may find kind of within their career because of their own perception of their own kind of selves.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah, it's really interesting because it's almost like, you know, it's about trying to almost figure out, which of it is imposter syndrome and what of it is kind of a real valid concern, right? And I'm speaking about this from my own experience in terms of, you know, I moved from working in the creative industries to working in automotive in financial services, right?
And I'm not a finance person.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: A little bit different.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah. Hugely different. Right. I'm not, I'm not a numbers person. You know, there's a lot of acronyms and APR and this, that, and the other. I'm thinking, I have no idea what's going on here. And I had huge imposter syndrome because I couldn't speak the language and I didn't understand, you know, what a lot of these kind of terms and phrases meant.
So, it's kind of like, is that imposter syndrome or is that just the fact I really don't understand? And the fact that I didn't understand meant that I was less able to speak up and speak openly because I was worried about saying something stupid that everyone else who'd been an accountant for 20 years would just be like, Who's this chick you've just pulled in kind of thing, you know, so it's like, when does it become imposter syndrome and when is it just, you know, actually you don't know and you are a bit out of your depth.
And that's the thing for me, I guess with my coaching hat on, it's like trying to get to the truth of it, you know, it's like…
Sophie Brazell Ng: Are you holding yourself back? For reasons that you've kind of, maybe not invented, but you feel yourself versus actually is something else kind of holding you back, like lack of knowledge and that's okay.
Sarah Partridge: Exactly. Is it a skills and knowledge gap in which case growth mindset, everything can be learned, right? Or is it a mindset thing in terms of you know, a lack of confidence, lack of self belief. And the two things in my brain often get merged into one. Yeah.
And so like, I think part of this is figuring out which one it is.Is it a bit of both? If it is the skills and knowledge, how can you upskill and help people to get the knowledge that they need to be confident in that environment, as well as working on the mindset if needed.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: I think it's a really interesting point, and for me it's asking that question of if I didn't have this imposter syndrome, if these thoughts weren't showing up, what would I be doing? How would I be behaving?
And that point around, is it a knowledge gap is really interesting, right? Because if you weren't having imposter syndrome, you weren't kind of questioning in particular that piece of like, I'm a fraud, people are going to think this about me, I'm going to be found out. If you just had a knowledge gap, you would go and fill it, right?
You would ask those, in inverted commas, stupid questions. “You would say, sorry, I don't have experience in this. Can you explain it to me?” And those are the kind of behaviours that you would be moving towards. Whereas where the imposter syndrome shows up is those are the blockers, right? So, because you have those thoughts of like, “Oh, people are going to think I don't know what I'm talking about, or people are going to judge me for getting this role.”
That's then the blocker. So actually, if we think kind of, okay, if my imposter syndrome wasn't here, I would just go and fill that skills gap. I would say, “Sorry, I don't know that. Can you explain it to me? Can you upskill me? Can you give me that knowledge?” Without that kind of inherent fear of not feeling like you can say that and having to just muddle through and pretend like you know what all those, you know, letters and numbers mean.
And that's the difference for me.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah. And I think, I think further to that, there is the cultural issue though, because, you know, when I think back to my own experience of being in a situation where I'm in financial services and not really knowing what's going on, you know, I had moments where I said, “I don't understand this, you know, my background isn't financial services. Can you explain that to me?” And I got a few looks, you know, a few kind of like knowing nods and glances.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And there was probably also a few glances in that room going, thank goodness, Sarah. Yeah. Ask that question.
Sarah Partridge: Someone else has asked the question. We've all got blank faces. Yeah. But I think, you know, Suzie, you, you know, you're absolutely right about being able to just say, you know, tell me, teach me, I want to understand, but there has to be the right culture to foster that.
And obviously we've just talked about psychological safety and if that's not there, you know, then it's very difficult to do that, right. To ask for that skills gap.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah. I'm kind of sat here thinking about how it's all about putting brakes on yourself based on your mindset, rather than necessary kind of thing actually.
I need to put brakes because I've got a knowledge gap. And also I'm thinking is, you know, is there a bit of a fine line, maybe not a fine line, or a bit of a seesaw between imposter syndrome and ego? How do you actually know when you're, you need to dissolve your ego and kind of let those questions flow?
I think another couple of things that like, I've been writing down so many notes here because this is not something that I'm, have lots of knowledge and expertise and so I've got lots of questions. But something that you were striking in your example, there that Sarah was A feeling that you needed to fit in and not necessarily recognising that you were brought into that situation because you provided something different.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah. And, you know, and this is when my boss at the time kept reminding me of that, you know, and I sort of would go to him with feelings of anxiety and it's just so complicated, I don't understand, I feel like I'm never going to get to where I need to be, blah, blah, blah.
And, you know, he was just like, just, slow down, you know, you're a smart person, you'll figure it out. We've brought you into this because you have a different perspective, because you have a fresh perspective.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: You've almost forgot that was your superpower.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, but you know, it's human nature to want to fit in and to want to be accepted and to want to be respected. And in terms of fitting into that organisational dynamic. You know, you don't want to come into an organisation at a leadership level and for people to go, why the hell have you employed her? She hasn't got a clue what she's doing. No one really wants that. We're all human beings, right?
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Especially if it's a new step up for you as well into leadership.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think that's just, just natural human behaviour really.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I think coming from like a consulting space, you always feel like you need to be the smartest person in the room. And I think also if you have a look at our education system, it's sort of like you get your GCSEs, your A levels, you go to university and you get all the A's and the firsts and, exceptionally do the masters.
There's always something that you've kind of got to get right and have the knowledge of, but that's not actually always the case or necessarily why. As a consultant, we can be really great in that room because we can ask those, and Suzie's had it in inverted quotations, those stupid questions, but actually, that's partly what we're there really to do and try to break down a problem in the right way.
We've started to touch on this a little bit, but Suzie, how does imposter syndrome impact and affect you at the workplace?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: So, I guess from a very personal perspective, as a psychologist, you have, I guess, all of the knowledge of what you should be doing. It's much harder to actually put that into practice.
And I think that's probably where my imposter syndrome shows up most significantly, of like, how dare I have these kinds of thoughts or feelings, or how dare I not be operating at the top of my game all of the time? What right do I have to be working with all these other people and trying to help them and support them with their own brains when my brain can be a bit annoying itself at times.
And I think for me as a practitioner, kind of acknowledging that that is okay. That is a very human experience speaking to other practitioners, coaches, psychologists about that and everyone going, yeah, no, like we all feel that. And we'll kind of talk about it a little bit more around how you can help to overcome some of these imposter syndrome type feelings.
But that's the biggest one for me is kind of how dare I try to help other people when sometimes I get this stuff wrong myself, and just acknowledging that that is very human and a very common experience, I think, particularly when you work in this kind of space.
Sarah Partridge: Definitely. I kind of feel the same way with a lot of the coaching that I do. And it's really interesting in the last few years. A lot of the coaching clients that I seem to be attracting are women, very senior women in business who are struggling with imposter syndrome, which is exactly my experience, kind of probably prior to setting up the Change Academy. But you know, when I was in corporate environment, I think that I had my own struggles with it and then I'm now attracting clients with the same kind of struggles.
So you sort of go, okay, well I've been through this so I can empathise with how you must be feeling. But have I got it nailed myself even though I'm a coach and you know, I'm helping them. No, I haven't. You know, it's like we're always on that journey to. bettering ourselves. And I've got loads of techniques that I use and I share with clients.
And you know, it's like, if I'm really honest, I'm probably not the best at using them on myself. I think sometimes you actually need, you know, if you're a psychologist or a coach, you actually need another coach or another psychologist to work with you on a human level, because it's very difficult to coach yourself or to, you know, have that kind of conversation with yourself, isn't it?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: I think, one thing I guess that I reflect on with particularly something like imposter syndrome, or that feeling of feeling out of your depth, or I'm going to be found out, is it is always perceived as a negative thing in general, right? It comes back to that, you know, calling it a syndrome and that feeling like there's something wrong with you.
The way I tend to kind of flip it on people is like, okay, we could get rid of that feeling, right? We could put you in a role or we could put you in a position in a space where you don't feel out of your depth or you don't feel like you're going to be found out. You don't feel like, you know, you don't know what you're talking about.
We could put you in a role that's nice and easy. You come to work every day, you know exactly what you're doing X, Y, Z. And everyone pretty much to the, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, that would be lovely. And then it's like, for how long? Like, what would that actually feel like for you as a person if you just came to work and you didn't have any of these feelings and you knew exactly what you were doing, you felt in control all of the time?
And I think actually if you flip that on its head, everyone kind of goes, well, I wouldn't like that. That isn't who I am. I want to challenge myself and stretch myself and grow and learn and do difficult things. And then it's kind of like, okay, so actually can we position imposter syndrome? This is how I try for myself.
It's kind of like, okay, well, if imposter syndrome is there, that means that we're moving towards the things that matter to us. That means that we're doing things that challenge us and stretch us and help us to grow. And almost that's not saying that it's not going to still be uncomfortable and it's not going to suddenly go away and you're going to be like, “Yeah, this is great, I love not knowing, feeling like I don't know what I'm doing.” But it just helps people have a bit of a shift in that perspective or relationship with it. And I often try and use that again, if I kind of notice it, it's like, okay, well, that's, you know, you feel that you don't know what you're doing because you're actually doing some really meaty, significant work with someone, and that's where you want to be, right?
You want to be helping people, you want to be helping people to, you know, work on this kind of stuff themselves. So that's cool, right? It's kind of a two sides of the same card almost that in order to be doing the kind of work that I want to do, I kind of just have to accept that imposter syndrome is going to come along with me.
I often say to people, we'll just bring it in our little wheelie case to go on holiday. Like we want to go to this place so we're going to have to bring it with us. It's just there. Yeah.
Sarah Partridge: So it's like really normalising it basically.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Well, the more that we're talking about the fact that it's called a syndrome, it's really kind of actually striking me that why have we given this natural human emotion a completely different entity as if it wasn't something that was part of us?
And it seems to just be something that's part and parcel of being a human. We've all sat here and gone, yeah, I have imposter syndrome. Is that a bad thing? Probably not. And I know everybody that I've worked with has experienced it.
I've seen some absolutely fantastic leaders stand up and say incredible things and then they come off the stage and they were like, “How did that go?I didn't really know what I was doing. Is that okay?” And I was like, well, yeah, it was amazing. I didn't even know that you were thinking that. And in a world where, you know, It's particularly as well in business or just in general in life, you know, we weren't necessarily put on the planet to do the things that we're doing.
There is no necessarily right answer or right way to do things. We've kind of invented all these constructs ourselves. So, of course there's going to be imposter syndrome. Otherwise we would be blindly running into situations without thinking it through properly.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: And I think that's where I tend to work with people, right, is I don't want to get rid of imposter syndrome.
That's not, as we've just touched on, if we get rid of imposter syndrome, that possibly means that we're not thinking things through, we're not working in a space that's challenging us or feels difficult. For me, it's about reducing the impact of those thoughts and feelings, right? So it's like, okay, that can still be there, but I can still show up how I want to.
And I think that's quite a big difference because if we're constantly trying to get rid of imposter syndrome and you know, then it's like, okay, well, are you pushing yourself, if you're in that kind of space? So it's, it's a little bit of a nuanced space, but it's, that's how I tend to approach it with people.
Sarah Partridge: I think there's one reflection I have on that, that I've sort of, you know, it's a learning for me over the years of managing people. You know, the last company I worked for, there was a lot of emphasis on sort of pushing to the next role. So what are you going to be like succession planning? What are you going to do next? Like, you know, what's your step up from here and where are you going to jobs from now?
Sophie Brazell-Ng: That's what we're taught at a very young age.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Do more.
Sarah Partridge: And so, so there was this real sort of culture of like, what's next, what's next? You know, you can't stay in a job too long because, you know, you got to go to the next one.
Yeah. And actually, like, what I learned from coaching people in that organisation is that not everybody wants to push themselves. Not everybody wants to push to the next level to step outside of their comfort zone, you know, and maybe they have a life where there's a lot of stress for them outside of work and they just need their work to be really comfortable and to just be feel pretty safe without that sort of drive to push forward.
And that was quite a revelation for me because I am someone that's very driven and ambitious and it's like, yeah, what's next? And, you know, planning the career kind of thing. But for others, it's just, that's just not their focus at all. And so I just wanted to reflect that because I think that I guess the human condition is that often we are striving for more, right?
We're striving to be better, but I think there are anomalies in that where people are actually just, they want to go to work and earn them money, but they want it to be as easy and as stress free as possible.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Definitely. I think in the model that I use, acceptance and commitment therapy, we talk a lot about values and and what is important to you, and I guess it is a really nice thing to call out that I guess a lot of the those values can look different for different people, right?
So making sure that, as you say, you're aligning to those values and you're doing the things that actually matter to you as an individual, that's going to look completely different depending on what those are.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: So we're all sat here saying this sounds really familiar and I'm sure everybody listening can connect with that and knows about their own imposter syndrome and where that shows up.
But I want to move us on to some practical takeaways. I want people to walk away thinking, oh, I can actually move into this positive space that we're talking of out of a syndrome. Suzie, how can we overcome our imposter syndrome?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Yeah, and I guess for me it comes back to that point of reducing the impact of some of those thoughts and feelings, right?
So we're not saying that it's not going to exist. We're just saying, okay, if this stuff does show up, how can I still move towards those values, be the kind of person I want to be at work, outside of work, whatever that might be. The first thing for me is just being aware of this. So that might sound really, really obvious, but actually noticing when do these kinds of thoughts show up most significantly for you?
What's the kind of context that they show up in? What do they feel like? What are the specific thoughts? And I call that kind of literally just noticing it. So paying attention to it. And noticing what the impact is, right? So if we have these thoughts of, oh, everyone's gonna think I'm a fraud, what does that mean that you do? So maybe you don't ask that silly question, or you don't put your hand up and challenge or something like that.
The second bit would be literally naming it. So once you've kind of got a bit of a sense of that feeling or those thoughts that maybe show up in this kind of space, literally put a name on it.
So whether that's just, Oh, that's my imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon showing up again, or literally giving it a name. So that's Sophie, my imposter syndrome showing up again. And just, you know, create a bit of a character out of it and kind of try and create a little bit of space from that sensation and that feeling.
And then the third one, which we've spoken about quite a lot, is just normalise it. So normalise it both from the perspective of sharing it with other people, acknowledging, you know, as soon as we start talking about these things, as you say, it's something that pretty much everyone will have experienced, but also normalise it in the context that you're in.
So the example that you gave Sarah, like you're in a new industry and a, maybe a stretch role, like, of course you're going to be feeling like this and that's okay. So that would be my first thing is just those three N's. So notice, name, normalise those experiences. Yeah. I think the noticing bit is something that we talk about a lot in coaching and leadership development because we can't have any kind of choice over something unless we've got awareness, right?
So the awareness creates the choice point. So it's like, I'm noticing myself having these thoughts and I can feel myself feeling anxious. Now I can choose whether to speak up or whether to just stay quiet. So you're kind of shining a light on these internal processes that can often just run us from the dark.
So we go through the motions of habitual responses to imposter syndrome or, you know, feelings of self doubt. But by kind of creating that awareness around the thoughts and the feelings, we're creating choice for ourselves. But that noticing part, I think is really quite difficult. And a lot of clients that come to me for coaching, when we work together to try and pinpoint those thoughts.
It's very difficult because people find it very difficult to think back to a situation. “So what was going through your head when you didn't speak up in the meeting, and you wanted to?” “I don't know. I don't know what was going through my head. I can't think of the thought.” So it's actually, it's quite difficult to do.
And obviously, you know, now we kind of think about all sorts of different ways that we can create more self awareness, like things like mindfulness, right? But that's really brilliant. If you have a practice of mindfulness, then you actually become more self aware to your internal processes that are going on, which then enables you to have more choice over what you do with it.
But it's quite tough, isn't it? In terms of, you know, it's not just switch it on and suddenly start noticing your thoughts. You have to practise it.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: That's going to be one of my next questions is, I guess you, you get used to doing that right notice, name, normalise, and then all of a sudden it starts to become something that you actually use quite a lot.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's funny, actually, you mentioned mindfulness. So it's one of my favourite. things ever. But when you first mention it to people, they're kind of like, oh, I can't do it right, or I don't know how to do it, or I don't have the patience for that. And people kind of think that with mindfulness, the aim is to empty your brain and be completely Zen and sit there for 20 minutes.
And actually, when I talk about mindfulness, all I mean is being aware of yourself in the present. But it is a skill, exactly as you said, right? And so I tend to get people to practise it almost proactively. So literally just sit for five minutes, notice what's showing up for you so that when you are in a meeting, you become much more skilled at being able to be like, Oh, I've just noticed a thought.
And that's that kind of translation piece that I think is really useful. Yeah, definitely.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Notice, name, normalise guys, please do. So in a situation where I've done that and I've got really good at doing that, what could a life look like without my imposter syndrome regularly showing up in potentially a negative way at work?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Well, I think that's almost part of this exercise as well, right? I often, I get people to almost like play spot the difference. So, we look at, okay, if we could, I always caveat we can't, but if we could just wave a magic wand and get rid of these feelings and these thoughts, What would you look like? What kind of behaviours would you be engaging with?
What kind of behaviours would you be engaging in? What would people in your team see? What would your manager see? What would your partner see? And literally get people to write them down, like, I would start every meeting by telling a joke. Maybe. I mean, I'm not necessarily recommending that, but
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Started this podcast really well, with your joke, Suzie.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: But it's really tangible things that, so for me, when I'm feeling a lack of confidence and feeling like a bit of an imposter, in meetings, I will go straight into the content. So I won't make any time for small talks. I'm just like, I want to get in, get it done, get out. Whereas actually, if I'm feeling really confident, I will have some small talk, have some chit chat. I'm not in a rush to get through whatever it is that, you know, needs to happen in that meeting.
So I get people to actually, like, write down what those behaviours are so that you can start taking steps towards those things. And we can do a bit of an exercise in a minute to kind of help with that, but identifying what you want to be doing, is for me a really useful kind of first step on that journey.
Sarah Partridge: Yeah. And as you were speaking, I'm thinking about it, you know, in terms of my own experience of imposter syndrome. And I think that, like for me, when I'm feeling imposter syndrome, it tends to make me feel really anxious. And when I'm feeling anxious, I'm a really bad listener.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Because you're so in your head.
Sarah Partridge: Totally. And like core part of my job is listening, like really hearing on a deep, deep level. And when I'm anxious, if I've got like a high stakes client or I'm in a training room with, you know, a group of directors or whatever it is, I find myself not being able to listen.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Because I've got two voices in my head. One that's me and one that's my imposter syndrome.
Sarah Partridge: Totally. But it's like a self sabotage because the thing I need to do the best is listen, and I can't be fully present because I feel anxious. So it's kind of like, When I reflect on that question, what would I be doing if I didn't have the imposter syndrome?
I would be like truly, deeply be listening and be present in the moment. So that's really helpful to me actually as a reframing.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. One of the things that another kind of, I guess, piece of homework that I get people to do particularly with that, right? So another element of imposter syndrome is when we're in those kind of spaces, we get really caught up in our heads.
So we have that voice, as you said, Sophie, like it's really distracting. All we can think is, Oh, everyone's going to think this of me. And you know, you have that almost internal monologue going on. So, it's quite a simple mindfulness task, I guess, is I get people to just pay attention to like a mundane task that they're doing.
So whether that's making a cup of tea, we're going to really engage with that. We're going to really notice what colour the liquid is. We're going to notice what the steam looks like, what the mug, like any chips on the mug, any of that. And really engage in that task. And all we're going to do is we're going to notice when we get caught up in those thoughts in our head and we're just going to bring our attention back to that task.
So we're going to again, Oh, okay. I've got distracted by this meeting I've got coming up. I'm just going to zone back into that task that I'm doing. And that again is a really useful way to then you can translate that when you're in a meeting or a session. Oh, okay. I'm listening to this person. I've got this thought in my head around, oh, people are going to think this about me or what am I doing here?
And you can notice you've got caught up and then choose to bring your attention back to engaging in the room. And that's a really useful kind of technique as well. Again, we're not getting rid of that imposter syndrome. It's not gone anywhere. We're just reducing the impact of it because we're choosing where we're going to focus our attention.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I love that. That's a really good example and practical thing that we can do. I guess on homework perspective, against some more practical things that we can do, because I think some of the exercises you've just said are going to be quite powerful for people who might, and simple actually, powerful yet simple, simple yet powerful for people to do.
If people listening were to walk away with one challenge for them to do today, what would you share with them, Suzie?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: So I think for me it is that the piece of homework would be to identify what you want to be doing. So identify the behaviours that you would be engaging with if you didn't have this imposter syndrome.
What are the specific things, whether that's in a meeting, could be as simple as I'm going to stand up in my next meeting because actually that's something that makes me feel really powerful. I think it would be really useful, but I always just sit down because that's what everyone else does and I don't want everyone to think I'm weird or something like that.
And then once you've identified that behaviour, It's starting to move towards that. So another little exercise I get people to do, which I'm going to get you two to do as well, if you're happy to, I just want you to close your eyes and everyone who's listening can do this as well. Just close your eyes as long as it's safe to do so, obviously.
And I just want you to think in your head, I can't lift up my left arm. I can't lift up my left arm. I want you to engage in that thought and kind of have that front of mind and present and really engage with that. Oh, that's weird. I can't lift up my left arm. How strange. And then I just want you to lift up your left arm.
Please lift up your left arm, ladies. Yep. How did you find that experience?
Sarah Partridge: Yeah, that was slightly weird.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Weird as, yeah, that tends to be the, the feedback. I was sort of going, like, why couldn't I do it before?
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And because I'm thinking about it and I'm like, Oh, I can't lift my left arm. I can't lift my left arm.
Oh no, I actually can't. And then we like, we'll go and do it. And I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, obviously I can. Yeah.
Suzie Mossman-Monk: And that tends to be the experience that people have. And, and I guess two things and it links to what we were speaking about from behaviours. So one, it shows how powerful your brain can be, right?
You've just put that thought in your head and your body suddenly is like. “Oh God, like I can't do that.” But the second thing is that you are still physically able to do things, even if your brain says that you can't. So, you don't have to go through the process necessarily of like, yes, you can lift up.
Like you can have that thought present in your head of, I can't lift up my left arm and lift it up. It feels a bit weird. But you are able to do it. And I think it's a really nice reminder that if you have those behaviours that you want to engage in, you can engage in those behaviours in spite of what your brain is saying.
You don't have to convince yourself that you're the best consultant or coach or psychologist in the world. You can engage in that behaviour of telling a little joke at the start of a meeting or allowing some time for small talk, even if your brain Is still saying people are going to think you're weird and that's a really nice kind of way that I get people just to remember like, you're still physically in control of what you do. You can still speak up, et cetera.
Sarah Partridge: Feel the fear and do it anyway. Exactly.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: She's back again with us. Short quotes. I love it. That was really powerful. Thank you, Suzie. I would just like to kind of, well, unfortunately coming to a little bit of a close of the podcast and forewarning both, I'm going to ask you for your key takeaways of today's session.
But Suzie, I know this is something that you do as our in house psychologist. Can you speak a little bit about the work that you do at Clarasys before we close?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: Yeah, so I think imposter syndrome is just one element of it. I work with a range of people within the business, so consultants, internal teams, to, I guess, help people to show up in the way that they want to at work in spite of, maybe internal thoughts and feelings that are present.
So whether that's from a leadership perspective of, you know, I want to be a leader who is maybe less micromanage-y, or I want to be a consultant or someone who can maybe bring positive challenge to our clients or a range of different areas, you know, general, if people are a bit anxious, if they've got stuff going on outside of work, I work with our consultants to make sure that we can still show up and deliver to the best of our abilities, to that highest level, in spite of anything else that's going on so we can deliver great results for our clients and for our internal teams as well.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And I can say it truly does make a difference to the way that we work and the way that we help our clients. So it's really powerful and something that I'm really proud of, of that we have.
Sarah Partridge: I think everyone needs a Suzie in their organisation, to be honest, yeah.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: So, fantastic discussion and again, another topic that I really enjoyed diving into.
I think for me in this, a key takeaway is that imposter syndrome is completely normal and that's okay. And there's some things that, very simple things that we can do to help ourselves overcome it, but notice, name and normalise. Sarah, anything key takeaways from today's session?
Sarah Partridge: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's just that reminder that it is just part of being human.
And actually, I really liked what you said, Suzie, in terms of it's not a negative thing necessarily. And actually, I think that my imposter syndrome, it drives me to be the best that I can be. It drives me to prepare and plan and make sure that I'm doing the best that I can. So I think actually it's like harnessing the positive as well, but also just the noticing part, you know, like just practising noticing it so that we can create choice and awareness around it on the evolving journey that we're on to be better human beings, I suppose.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. And Suzie, what's the one kind of message that you want to land for listeners?
Suzie Mossman-Monk: I think for me it would be, we don't necessarily want to get rid of it, we don't need to get rid of it, we can still show up how we want to, we can still do those scary things in spite of that imposter syndrome being there.
It's just focusing on how do we want to be showing up and that kind of remembering your left arm and you can still engage in those behaviours even if your brain is being a bit noisy.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. Well, a huge thank you to you both for another really engaging and rich conversation. I hope folks listening found that really, really useful and you've got some really great takeaways from today.
We'll put all of our notes and links into the show notes as well, including some of the things we've talked about. Notice name normalise and a little bit of the activities that you can do. But once again, thank you to both our guests and please join us again next time for an episode of Game Changers.