In this episode of Game Changers, host Sophie Brazell-Ng sits down with Flo Akingbade, UK Transformation Director and change management expert, to explore the intricacies of navigating organizational change.
What’s in store for you in this episode?
Whether you’re a seasoned professional, just dipping your toes into change management, or curious about what it takes to guide others through transformation, this episode is packed with insights, stories, and practical tips to inspire and equip you.
So grab your headphones and get ready to learn how to navigate change, influence outcomes, and make an enduring impact on those around you.
Listen here or read on for an edited transcript.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Game Changers. Today I'm joined by the lovely Flo. Hi Flo!
Flo Akingbade: Hi!
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Flo is here to talk to us today about change management and all the work she does. So Flo, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Flo Akingbade: Of course. I am Flo Akingbade the UK Transformation Director in a real estate firm. I've been in change management for about 10 years now. Vast number of experience over the years, various industries. And I'm so excited about today.
Woo-hoo. I'm really excited.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I've be really excited to have you in. Flo and I met at a Clarasys event that we ran all about Gen AI and we hit off over a glass of wine and a couple of actually really, really good nibbles. I think that, that we had.
Flo Akingbade: Arancini's.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Ah, they were divine.
Flo Akingbade: Delicious.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: So we thought it'd be really nice to run a little podcast and hear all about Flo's experiences of change management. So, classic, what we're going to run through today is we start with the definition, we find out about your experience, and then we hopefully walk away with some practical actions for our listeners.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: In true form, definition, what does change management mean to you?
Flo Akingbade: It's a really great question, actually. Change management, to me, is the gift of holding people's hand through a time that can be quite challenging, a time that can be quite daunting. Change is inevitably scary because of the fear of the unknown, but being able to handhold people through that process, so we move from unknown to known and we work through all of the emotions that come up in between, and then we move to success. And that's change management for me, end to end.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I love that definition of that, because I think when I ask people a lot of these questions, or when you talk to people about change management, it is often embedded in like the digital, or I do great technological transformations, etc.
And I spend a lot of time talking to people about saying actually it's not just about the digital, there's other aspects of change management that we do, and people forget the people element of it. And that's the reason I've gone into change management. I really enjoy the aspect. So the gift of holding hand is actually what I've just written down there because I think it's such a nice way to talk about change management.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely. You would find that when a lot of people are going through change in business, the first thing people think automatically is I'm going to lose my job. No matter what the change is. Even if the change is we're going to flick the switch over there and that's it, I'm losing my job. That's why this is happening. So being able to be that voice of comfort to people that 'we're not here to remove you, we're here to make things easier for you'. And listening to people's pain points and being that sort of listening ear. I don't take that for granted because I've been on the receiving end of change where that's not been followed through. And I've made it my life's mission, should we say, or my career's mission, to ensure that I'm transparent with any change that's happening. We're going through the change together and you will feel confident enough to be able to tell me, I don't think this is working. Well, this is not how I think it should be. Have you considered...?
So I'm very open to feedback from anyone. I don't impose change. I don't think imposing change works, personally. It's everybody's journey. And like you rightly said previously, it's the people that's at the heart of change. The digital change, the whatever transformation that you're trying to achieve is almost the outer layer of the onion, but the actual core is the people and they're the ones that you need to handhold. So yeah, it is a gift because I don't think everyone can do it.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, no. And the onion's a great analogy because there's also so many layers. So, you know, so once you get to the people bit, all these people have got layers behind them and it's taking that time, I think, to understand that and how people are responding and reacting to things.
I really liked also how you said comfort and confident. And I think there's always an element of change where, people think we're coming in to fix things. And actually often, telling the truth or being honest actually is the thing that you need to do and we can't always make things better for people and we can't always make things easy and sometimes we do have to put in changes that aren't nice or we don't want to do ourselves, but, when you guide somebody through that and when you give them the time and you give them the explanation then it makes it easier to handle and I think that's the other privilege that we get is to support people and help guide them through what would be difficult times to make it easier than if we were not there.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely and I also think another key benefit is seeing people realize and unlock their own potential at change management. So one of my past experiences, I worked with a particular individual who'd done no sort of change management whatsoever. And my goal was to train that person up, get them to understand why, what is the vision for the change? Why are we doing it? When should all of this change happen? Who's impacted? And basically make them almost like my number two. That person then decided to start looking into a role in change management because they really enjoyed it. So even though they were the impacted individuals, they saw the benefits of the change and they saw the benefits of change management and all the activities that surround change management to ensure success. So seeing that is also very fulfilling.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, we're often the unwritten thank you. It's a privilege sometimes. So you're obviously really passionate about change and as we found from the number of hours that we can sit talking about it probably.
What I would love to know a little bit about is your career journey. I think there's gonna be quite a few people that listen to this that either this might be the first time they've heard about change, they might be looking to get into change themselves, or they've got a lot of change experience and actually just interested in others journeys. Would you mind telling us a little bit about your career journey?
Flo Akingbade: Of course. So I started in a bank, a retail bank. I went to university, I studied law. I didn't like it. It was too much for me personally. I did not like it. So I thought, oh let me go into banking, the world of banking, and start my career there. Yes, I didn't study it, whatever. So I went into a retail bank and I worked my way through the ranks. And I didn't realize that what I was doing was an element of change management because being in a retail bank, we didn't use the terminology that the corporate world uses.
I had a friend, we'd gone to college together and she'd already started working in corporate and she was like, tell me what you do. And I told her, I said, I manage people's behaviors. I move people from A to B. This is the language I was using back then. And then that's where she made me realize, she's like, you could be a change manager. And I was like, ooh.. But then, I'll be very honest, and don't laugh, but I'll be very honest, when I first heard change management, I thought it was money, as in coins.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Okay, that makes sense when you're working in a bank though, although I don't remember the last time I really saw a coin, but nowadays anyway.
Flo Akingbade: So I actually thought it was coins, I was thinking change management, I don't want to manage coins, and then she was like, no, change management is in process change, I was like, okay, okay.
So then I left the bank and then I went into food logistics and that was my first real change management role. So I was the change lead for three depots in the southeast region. Very challenging. The food logistics industry is quite union dominated. And if you wanted to get change through the door, it had to go through the union. And if they didn't buy into the change, it's not happening, which I think is a gift and a curse. They fight for their people, but then sometimes they don't see the benefit because they don't see the bigger picture sometimes. And please correct me if I'm wrong, if any union members are here, but sometimes the reason for the change is, there's a bigger picture behind why we need to change. There's a reason that trickles or domino effect that this particular change will start rolling. So I had to really learn the gift of negotiation, influencing and conflict resolution. I was there for about 18 months and then I moved into management consulting.
So I was a management consultant and I was on a oil and gas account and I was looking after their digital transformation on one of their oil rigs. That was fun. Learned a lot about how 12 seconds can cost millions of dollars.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Oh yeah. Were you on the oil rigs?
Flo Akingbade: Oh no. I was solidly in the UK.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Obviously you can't see Flo right now, but she's got the most magnificent nails on and I was like, these nails are not meant for an oil rig.
Flo Akingbade: Oh thank you. No, they're not fit for an oil rig, no, no, no.
I don't even think my person is fit for an oil rig. So then, yeah, I was working with them and then from there I came into real estate, which is where I am at the moment. And one thing that I love about change management is you're not tethered to any type of industry. You can move anywhere and everywhere. The principles remain the same. The only thing you need to learn is how they do business and how the people work. But generally speaking, the change management principles or the transformation principles, whatever, project management, process improvement, whatever it might be, the principles remain, but you can be so fluid. So you're not tethered to any industry and the world is your oyster. That's my career journey in a nutshell. If anyone wants to know more, let me know.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: I love it. I also noted down negotiate, influence and conflict resolution, which going back to the first definition of change management, that feels really like nicely within there because you're doing that all with people at the forefront and people at the heart and negotiating influence and conflict resolution is integral to actually everything that we're trying to do and trying to help people through and sometimes it can be hard, sometimes it can be really easy when you've got something that's really compelling, or as you said with unions, you've really got to understand their perspective, understand where they might be coming from and help them see the bigger picture or help the bigger picture see what the union is saying.
Flo Akingbade: Exactly, exactly. And that goes back to my point in terms of being an open book for people to feel comfortable to say, you know, have you thought about it from this perspective whilst this is the planned project, maybe we should detour looking at this.
I think one of the key things is being someone that people can feel comfortable to come and speak to. Where I occupy quite a senior position, I make sure to be as personable as possible because I don't know everything. And that's another thing with change management, you're not going to be close enough to the detail, the SMEs are, but they need to be comfortable enough to come and talk to you about what they are actually SMEs in, as opposed to what you're an SME in, which is change management. So yeah, you could do your job. Fantastic. But you can't forget the people going back again to our initial point where people are at the heart of change and at any point if you miss that, the risk of failure is so much higher.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, and I think we're in a world where people have a perception that things get fixed really quickly. And it also, certainly with like technology, it's moving really fast. But we are. people at the end of the day. And we don't change fast and we've got emotions and deep set behaviors and that takes time to change.
So, I think we're often in these cycles of, I think tech is a good example of it because it's quite tangible, of constant change. And people just can't keep up with it. But also to help them on that journey, you have to invest time.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And it's, often really difficult to explain, or I find it difficult to explain to people that , my job is a lot of stakeholder engagement. That's spending time talking to people. Now you might not see that as an actual output. I've not created a thing, but the thing that I have created is a relationship that helps us move forwards to the next phase. I always find that something that's quite hard to explain to people that aren't in the change management world who see, success as ticking off a KPI or I've released budget in this space. It's like, well, actually I've moved a person along and it doesn't quite get the same weight, I think, but equally or if not more important.
Flo Akingbade: I agree. But then I think it's because it's us as change professionals that bring reality to all of that. Everyone else is looking at the bottom dollar. Are we moving the needle? Are we saving money? Are things changing the way we need them to change? But we are the heart. We're the ones that bring the attention to the people. We're responsible for people being at the forefront of the change. Because other people are focused on totally other things, like your project managers focus on budget and making sure that the project gets to deadline successfully.
The transformation directors making sure that the portfolio succeeds. As a change professional, my focus is people adopt it and people actually sustain the change as opposed to, let's do it for six months. Once she's gone, we'll revert back to the way we used to do it and then it's like, oh my gosh, we've gone to 360 and we have to come all the way back again and start. So yeah, I think that's the gift. Like, we are the heart of every change that happens.
As a change manager, you can be proud of seeing a change through from start to finish and then visit it back maybe a year later and see that not only is it still there, but it's also been improved because you've empowered your team.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: That's the nicest thing, you know, when you come back and you meet somebody that you've worked with for so long and you felt that you went through the trenches together and then you come back, as you say, like a little bit later on and they've moved your thing and they've made it even better and you're like, oh my gosh, and they're like, we love it, it's great. Yeah. It's such a good feeling.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely, love it.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah. So there might be a couple of folks listening again that, uh, what is change management? Give us a tangible example. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience of some of the projects that you might be really, really proud of and give us some tangible things for listeners to understand what we do in change management?
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely. So, in digital transformation, which I think is really apt at the moment because we are in the digital age, everything's going digital. We had a project, this is in my current role, we had a project where we were looking to drive the adoption of a particular tool. Now, what we do in my team is we use a particular framework, which is prepare for the change, manage the change and then sustain the change, which is the PROSCI methodology.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: For anybody that doesn't know what that is, PROSCI is the leading change management body. It's P R O S C I, for anyone that wants to look that up.
Flo Akingbade: So yeah, we tend to follow the PROSCI methodology. So we would think about all the preparation that needs to happen and that is your phase one and that's the prepare for the change.
That's your communications plan, that is your training plan, that is your change roadmap, your risk mitigation plan and your resistance management planning.
The next thing you would need to do is almost have like a checkpoint where you can tick off so that you know, okay, we've done everything that we need to do in the manage stage.
Then you move into phase two where you're now managing the change. And that will typically happen when you're about to go live. So the change has now gone live. And now what you would want to do is understand how people are using the tool now, the new tool, and then understand those challenges that they're facing in the first instance. And listen. And spend time. You can't underestimate the importance of face to face interaction.
We did roadshows. We went to various offices all over the UK. And we sat with people and showed me how you're using the tool. And some people might feel like, oh, I don't want to do that. But other people, majority of people felt like, oh, thank you for taking that time out to really show me how this tool works, I understand it better.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: This is where I think there's a lot of things that work really well hybrid and there's a lot of things that work really well remotely and a lot of the job that we do we probably do a hybrid and remote but there's there's that element of when you're actually trying to do it that moment of go live or understanding the problem that someone's going through that actually that in person aspect of it works so well and I think it works even better nowadays because it's something that then feels different because we don't do that as much as we used to.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely, but I think you're right in terms of understanding how people work, because some people preferred it to be over Teams, and share the screen. And then in that situation is you show your screen, and then I'll talk you through it. So the whole idea is you are using it, I will train you, but then I'm also training you in a way where you are comfortable enough to train somebody else. So taking the train the trainer approach. So we did that the best way, the best way.
And then also I think it's key to add in here, when you're dealing with big change efforts, like the one I'm talking about, you need to ensure that you've got that leadership buy in. And this goes to the point where I mentioned about negotiation, influence, and conflict resolution. Maybe not so much conflict resolution here, but definitely negotiation and influence.
Influencing upwards is harder than influencing down, because when you're influencing downwards, you know the good, the bad and the ugly, and you know how to almost template it for them. But when you're influencing upwards, you're basically saying, this is worth it. Believe in it, buy into it. You're selling it. You're pitching , but yeah, you need to influence upwards and get buy in from leadership, because as you're working your way down the business, what should happen is leadership is reinforcing what you're saying.
As a change manager, I call it soft manipulation in a way, where you have to get people doing what you want them to do, but make them feel like they've thought about it themselves. So, leadership, this is the new tool, have a look at it, have a play around with it. How do you feel about it? Okay. I need you to go and speak to your teams.
So it's almost like you're doing the work, but then they're reinforcing it for you. And that way, like they say, lead by example, you're hoping that people will see them using it and it would encourage them to use it more.
So you'd go through those various things, you open up feedback loops. So spaces where people can let you know what's working, what's not working. And then once you're happy with that, again, checklist, have you done everything? Have you followed your comms plan? Have you followed your training plan? Have you followed your resist? All the plans that you did in phase one, have you followed them through in phase two? Since it can then tick it off and then you move into phase three.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And before we move into phase three, I often find it interesting between phase one and phase two, I think where we have plans, I think a lot of other professions like to have like very linear plans.
And I know we definitely overuse the term agile, but we need to flex our plans. Because people have wildly different reactions to things and are also influenced by things that are happening on in the world and in their personal life. So it's sort of, I think one of the important things of being a change manager is, yes, I've got my plan, but I'm not going to hold on to it too rigidly.
I have a direction and an outcome that I'm looking to go, but I will flex that based on, the feedback, as you said, that I'm hearing from people because I need to make this work for them.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely. And even another thing with planning is the project could take a totally different steer.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And it always does, doesn't it?
Flo Akingbade: It always does.
I was on a project, this was very early on in my career in real estate, I was on a project and we'd done the first go live and we were about to go live with the second set and the project took a whole different turn. So the whole plan that we'd written before no longer was viable for the next stage. So we have to adapt it, but that's the beauty of change management, isn't it? It's the ability to adapt to change as and when it presents itself.
So then we move into phase three and that's more around sustaining the change. So what behaviors are you instilling in the team? How are you empowering them to continue BAU? So one thing I like is acompliance check, where you check what the individuals are actually doing versus what they're supposed to be doing with the new change. And then identifying what is the gap that we're trying to plug here? Why do you not feel comfortable following the new process? Because sometimes you find some insightful information about better ways to do things. So sometimes a project can be just one project, but then we don't have a phase 2 because we've realized that this doesn't work very well.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And without change managers, people often forget that bit. So we're like, okay, we've done it. Great. Yeah. Whereas actually, we've actually got a little bit extra where we've actually listened and oh, we found out that they want to do it in a better way. And it's actually better than the original plan that we came up to. And it's sort of being okay with that, and being like, well, thank you very much, yes, let's do that because you're going to do that anyway. And it makes sense that we do that with everyone else.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely. Especially when if your change effort is a process and then someone's found a quicker way to do it, which makes them more efficient, there will be a phase two of the project. And that's when your influencing comes in because then you need to get the senior team to budget the second phase of the project.
So yeah, we'd complete those compliance checks. But my other key thing is the handover to the business. Being robust and ensuring knowledge management is up there, ensuring that they feel empowered, they know their support functions, and then any challenges that they might face, how do they, how do they deal with that? And then, yeah, you'd leave, we'd actually step away from the project. But then really and truly, do you really ever step away from a project? Someone will always still come back to you because you become the face of that project. But then it's about understanding who's the best person for that person to liaise with in the business.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: To go back to what you said at the beginning about your definition of change, it was gift of handholding and somebody actually asking for that help and you've got that element in it that people want to come to you after that go live, for example, and be like, I don't understand this or this isn't working or I've got another really good idea. That's so important because not only is it buy in from the people that are using it, even if it's good or bad, they're actually like, okay, like I want to make a change, I want to make it better. But they have a voice and they have somebody or a space to go to to raise something. Otherwise, in areas where you've not got that, that person might just be sitting there, unable to do something, or unable to move forward or to do their job. And that's a horrible place to be, where actually that you've created a space for them in whatever change technique you've used, feedback, surveys, being in the office, floor walking, etc, for them to go, oh, I don't know, or I've got a question. And that speeds up so much quicker and so much faster and just results in far less problems. And can be quite painful sometimes, because when you're a change manager, you are asking for those problems, so the problems are going to come to you. And you're like, okay, oh gosh, yeah, yeah, it's all right, but it's okay. And I'd rather it be read and I know about it than read and not know about it.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely. And then also the other big risk that comes from that is they just revert back to the way they used to do it. Because that's what's familiar to them. And if I don't have the support, speaking as though I'm one of the impacted, if I didn't have the support, I'd just go back to how I used to it. I'd know how to do that one and I'd just do it.
But obviously there are some change efforts where the old way is no longer possible and that's where you breed the frustrations and that's where people get upset.
And one thing about change management that I also think mustn't be forgotten is trust. So it's really beneficial for you to go into your projects knowing that you're going to see it through to whatever completion looks like. And sometimes completion doesn't always look like success and being able to be that face that people can say, I know what happened. I know why it happened. And so if you come back again with another project, people aren't thinking, oh, she's just going to do another rubbish thing. She doesn't know what she's doing.
They'll probably trust you a bit more that, okay, that didn't work last time, but these are the reasons. We're very clear. She was very open, very transparent. They've got a new project now. I trust that she would be able to see it through. So trust is really, really, really important if you want to be successful.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And honest with that, right? Because things, you don't want to butter things up, but it actually did go wrong because it's going to keep on making the same mistakes. So we're often that, I would say, the voice or the most annoying voice in the room. We're pointing out things that people don't like. We're making it really visible that something didn't go well and we're sharing people's complaints. But, the difference is, we are then going to do something about it. And I think that's the really important thing. I would love to know a little bit about where you've kind of won big or your proudest moment in change management.
Flo Akingbade: My proudest moment would have been when I was working my first job when I was in the bank. I was moved into a branch that was slightly underperforming, and we had annual audits, and ideally you should be scoring green. And I believe, I remember, if my memory serves me well, we were scoring amber. And when I walked into that branch, there were so many things that I identified. There were so many issues that I saw. Training wasn't done on time. There's various issues anyway.
I can be quite shy as a person. I know everybody will say, oh my god, you're not shy. But I can be quite shy. But every time I'm faced with a challenge, I see it as an opportunity to bring a new flow forward and really go at it and grab the bull by the horns. Every opportunity I get, I really, really, really, really give it my all. So I was like, okay, right, let's look at what we're currently doing. And again, remember, as I mentioned before, I didn't know this was change management. I just thought it's the thing that makes logical sense. Let's look at what we're currently doing. What are the problems and how do we fix them?
So I did that for about the better part of a year. Ahead of the next annual audit and we moved from amber to green and I was so happy. I was so happy because I thought I can do this. I can do this. And when I told my friend, if you remember I mentioned before, when she was asking me, what do you do? And I told her, she's like, that's change management. And I was like, Oh, I enjoyed this. I like people coming along the change as opposed to you do it and you do it now, which I'm not saying anyone does, but that's sometimes how it feels for some people who are impacted by the change.
But I like the idea of we're working on it together. We're going through this journey together, but then also celebrating those successes, those small interim wins where, okay, we've done this really well. Oh, everyone's mandatory training is completed ahead of schedule. Well done. That's great. Oh, our customer NPS scores have increased by so and so percent, well done. And that way people feel more empowered and more encouraged to see it through to the end as opposed to being radio silent from start to finish and then be like, oh yeah, well done. So it's like, for what?
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Absolutely. You know, it's funny you say the small bit, they're my favorite moments in change management.
The bits, not when we've actually done the big bang go live or not when we've done something huge or we've saved this or we've done that. It's the moments where the couple of people have come up to you and said, thank you very much for doing that. That really helped me. And that's, that's all, that's all. I'm like, you're welcome. That, and that for me means that it was worthwhile. And it's even better when you get the people that were the biggest detractors at the start coming up to you and go, you did a great job.
Flo Akingbade: I love that.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah. And, and it can sometimes be like, do you know what, actually it still isn't the change I want. I'm still resistant to it, but thank you. And that is my favorite.
Flo Akingbade: I love that. That's a good point. One thing people probably know about me and I say probably, but I hope they do. Whenever we're starting a new project or anything, I love to have a mixture of people in the room. And majority of the people that I want in the room are those that are total detractors. They do not want anything to do with the change. They don't want to touch it with a yard pole.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah. And no one else wants to talk to them.
Flo Akingbade: And no one wants to talk to them. I want them. Bring them to me. Let's have a chat. Let's have a coffee. And then a few of the ones that are the early, early adopters. Yeah, absolutely. Get you in the room. But I want the room to be filled with those that don't want it because the insight that you get from those groups is incredible, but then also when you get them to buy in, they champion it.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, even if it's just one of them, like your early adopters, no matter what they're going to do, are always going to be your early adopters. They will bring those who are, close enough to be the adopters, or just need someone else to give it a go first, they'll bring everyone else. The people that will swing it completely the other way, you're detractors, and they bring, one voice can bring so many people with them, both negative and positive. So you change that one person, that's the person you've got to put some effort into.
Flo Akingbade: Exactly, and once you get them as a champion, your change effort becomes just that much easier.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, you are flying. So I also think it's really important to learn from our mistakes. So if you're happy, I would love to just hear about what do you think your biggest failing was and what did you learn from it?
Flo Akingbade: That's a really good question.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: They don't have any big catastrophic.
Flo Akingbade: No, I think my biggest failing would have been when I didn't prepare enough for the change and I was trying to wing it and this was very early in my career, and it was because we were against a hard timeline. So I had leaders telling me it needs to be done, it needs to be done, it needs to be done, but we weren't putting in the effort to actually check, is this the right way to do it? Is this the right time to do it? Are people change fatigued? Do we know what other changes are coming down the pipeline? Like, is this the right time? So being young and trying to impress, I did a bit of people pleasing and I just went ahead with the change and I was able to tick the box and say, okay, it's done. We came back a year later, everything was undone. Everything was undone. And then one thing I said to myself is I'm not doing that again. I'm not coming back to this change again. So the art of negotiation comes in here. If we're going to do this again, I'm happy to be part of it, but we need to give this time. We need to understand properly the impacts on the individual and we need to be able to scope what does the end to end process look like for the individual. If we can't do that, there is no project.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And I don't need to know every enth detail of it. I just need to know where you're trying to get to and some of the basic things of how we're going to get there, because if I don't have that, I can't plan for anything.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely. And I think it's about finding your strength as a change manager because you're the professional. You're the one that knows if we don't follow a certain framework, this change is going to fall flat on its face. And you need to walk in the authority that you can sway a decision for a project simply because you believe people are not ready for this change right now or people are tired. We've just gone through X number of change. We're not going to get the buy in. They're not going to do it. let's look at doing it in X months time or whatever. Walk in the authority that a change manager gives you. You're the expert. They just want to get you over the line.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, I completely agree with that.
And it goes to a point you were also saying earlier about managing upwards and how difficult that can be, but also the importance of actually building your relationships there because you're not a project manager saying no I can't meet the timeline, you're actually someone saying no people aren't ready and you can provide quite compelling evidence behind that but actually having the courage to do that's really really really hard but also you have the space to do that because that's what your role affords you.
I remember I was in a situation where leaders were trying to push through a change and it was right before Thanksgiving and I was like this is a bad idea. And nobody was really listening. And they were like, no, no, we've got to, this was on the project team, no one was really listening. We have to meet the deadlines. We have to meet the deadlines. And I was like, no, we don't. But they were like, the exact sponsorship is saying so. And I remember working with my fellow change managers and we created a story essentially to tell the story. And we were like, you might want in now. Because you think it's ticked something off and you're getting it before your quarter or your half or whatever it is. But we were like, just wait two weeks, just wait two weeks, we can do it in between this time. Also, you know, that classic dead time between kind of like just early up until Christmas. I was like, that's your time to do it. Let's do it then because we can get it. And I remember kind of, you know, being the most unpopular person in the project team.
And I was like, well, just you wait, I know it's coming. Anyway, so then we went and told the compelling story and the exact sponsor was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Hold off. And we went back to the project team, they were obviously, you know, worried about getting info facts going. They were like, brilliant, that actually works really well for us. So it's knowing that you have that power.
And I think I would also have a similar big mistake as you. You don't know that early in your career, you think you have to do what people say, and then you actually learn a little bit more and realize you can push or you can ask a question, but in a different way that makes people listen.
Flo Akingbade: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you made a good point just a moment ago in terms of you need to walk in the authority of a change manager because you're the one that's empowered to know the impact on the person and therefore the success of the change.
Without the people, there is no change.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: You will know the success of the change. So like, if you need to push it on, push it on. If you need to just hold off, hold off, please. Trust me, I love that. Thank you for sharing that because not everyone's comfortable about sharing their biggest failings but I think we've all got lessons to learn from that and we should all be more comfortable sharing those.
So I want to move us on to some practical takeaways because I know the folks listening to this might want to know okay what can I do or I really want to try change management or how do I level up my game in it. What is your biggest top tip or technique that you like to use when managing change?
Flo Akingbade: I think those are two different questions and I'll answer both of them.
So the first one in terms of technique, face to face interaction. It goes a long way and if you can do hybrid, do it. If that's what works for the individuals that's impacted, by all means do it. But there is something about being in the same space as individuals that is sometimes comforting, sometimes it can be challenging, sometimes they're a bit worried while you're here, but sometimes it's comforting. And sometimes it's supportive, just, you're the face of the change, so I need your help. So I don't underestimate the power of interactive communication face to face.
And then my top tip goes back to what you were just discussing just now, don't be afraid to be the most disliked person in the project.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: The most unpopular person in the room.
Flo Akingbade: The most unpopular person in the room. Don't be afraid to be that person because what you want to see is the change stick. There is nothing more demoralising than putting all the effort into a change and coming back a year later and it's like, oh we don't do that no more.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: And it's not just your effort, it's everyone else's effort too.
Flo Akingbade: Everyone else's effort. So don't be afraid to be the most unliked person. Be bold. Be firm, but be empathetic as well to both sides of the story. So understand that the business has its outputs to achieve, but also understand that the person is impacted by this change and they need to understand why this is happening.
It's so important the why, the vision behind the change is so, so, so important. Because if people don't understand the why, what's the point?
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yep, the why and what's in it for me, or what does it mean to me? Yeah, absolutely. Explain those two things and you're off to a very good start. No, I really agree with that. I wrote be bold, be firm and be empathetic. And I think that's a really nice, that full circle way to be.
What skills do you think are critical for being a change manager and you would encourage people to develop?
Flo Akingbade: I'm going to say something a bit funny, but if you don't like people, do not venture into change management.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Oh, 100%. Please. If you do not like people, do not do it.
Flo Akingbade: Do not do it. You'll be surprised. Some people, you can tell that they're just not people people. And they're in change. You're just like, why? Why are you here? How did you do this? But I think the biggest skill is communication, communication, communication, communication. Very, very important. So that's that.
Time management, very important.
Organization, because sometimes, if not most times, you're not going to just be on one project. You'll probably be across various projects. So you need to know how to bring your best self forward.
But then also I think, outside of work, is taking time for yourself. Because change can be really hard and sometimes change is emotive. There's some change efforts that are emotive. When you're looking at cost reduction, sometimes it is very emotive. So take time for yourself. I just wanted to add that in there as a side note.
Another skill that is really, really important is your problem-solving skills. You will come up against various problems in the course of a change project. And it's, how do you deal with that? Who do you lean on for support? How do you manage it?
Leadership. No matter what level you are coming in as a change manager, you're a leader of something, you're a leader of change. To the business, you are the leader of change. No matter your level of seniority, you are a leader of change, so you need to know how to lead change. And also, you'll find a lot of the time, if not most of the time, it's probably just you, and maybe another person. That's working on a change effort. So you're the face of the change. You're the leader. So leadership is really, really important.
And then going back to the points that I raised before in terms of influence and negotiation and conflict resolution. Those three are imperative because those are through every change without fail. You are definitely going to come up against some sort of conflict, be it that they don't want to do the change, they don't see the value in the change, or leadership doesn't want to buy into the change. Negotiation, maybe the change is taking a totally different direction and getting the business to buy into that and then influencing both upwards and downwards. This is good for you. This is here to make you more productive. This is here to make you more efficient. This is here to make life easier for you. This is here to make you work smarter, not harder, especially when we're in the world with AI and we're trying to get people to buy into the various AI tools that we have around the business. We're not trying to get rid of you. We're trying to make you more efficient. and get you to spend more time doing value adding tasks as opposed to those repetitive tasks that get you sat at your desk for hours on end.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Love it. I like how you brought up, don't wear the change. Don't think many people have said that here before. That's really important because you're right, it can be really, really, really emotive, but you are there to listen and In order for you to actually make change and move things forward, you're there as an individual that's outside of the situation, right. So actually you have power in the fact that you aren't the person going through the change necessarily. And don't wear it because A, it might be quite exhausting on you, but then you can no longer be independent. And it's really important that independence because sometimes when you listen to a lot of voices which are negative, then actually you can't see the woods for the trees. Well, I think that's the right way around, yeah.
Flo Akingbade: See wood through trees.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Where actually you might be missing the real important point there. So I agree, don't wear the change because that can be really quite exhausting.
Flo Akingbade: Honestly, and also there's another thing around we are all people and we can see if you don't believe in the change. You have to believe in what you are telling people to believe in. People see right through people, so if you don't believe in the change, that means you need to do a bit more of the influence and a bit more of the discussions with your leadership negotiation to really understand why are we doing this and what are the benefits to this change. Because if people can see that you do not believe in this, trust me, there's something that you will do that will tell people, you don't even want to do this.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, yeah, they'll figure you out. They'll see it.
Flo Akingbade: And then once that happens, to then get their trust back, it's an uphill battle.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Yeah, it's really hard.
What an insightful conversation we've had. I've absolutely loved this. And I've only gone to tip of the surface of questions I had to ask you. But what I would love to know, as we kind of wrap this up, is what is your one takeaway from today's conversation?
Flo Akingbade: Feel free to talk about your career and I think one thing I'm really working on actually as an individual is the ability to talk about my achievements and my successes. I don't struggle with talking about my failures, I don't struggle with that at all. Do not struggle with that at all. But talking about those strengths and successes.
But then also I think, going back to my point in the beginning where I'm saying the gift of change is holding someone's hand through it. I think the gift here would be someone hearing this and thinking, I can do this. This is really insightful, this helps. What Flo said here or what Sophie said here is really helpful. And seeing that person go into the career and flourishing, that would be incredible. Not that anyone owes it to me to tell me where they are, but, you know, just having that knowledge that it could impact even only one person, that's a real big win.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Amazing. Well, thank you very much, Flo, for joining me today.
Flo Akingbade: Thank you for having me.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: The Game Changers podcast. We've loved it. If people would like to get in touch with you, how do they get in touch?
Flo Akingbade: Sure. So, LinkedIn is the best place to see my profile. Flo Akinbade, find me on there, add me, connect with me, send me a message, and I'm very responsive. I'll respond on there.
Sophie Brazell-Ng: Please do, because chatting to Flo is an absolute ray of sunshine as well, so please do reach out to her. She's absolutely wonderful.
Thank you everybody for listening to today's episode. My name is Sophie Brazell-Ng. I am one of the consultants here at Clarasys. If you'd like to get in touch with me, my email address for Clarasys will be in the show notes.
Or you can find me and follow me on LinkedIn. Thank you very much for joining.
Flo Akingbade: Thank you for having me. It's been fun.
Show notes
Guest bio:
Find Flo on LinkedIn here.
Find Sophie on LinkedIn here.
Reach Sophie via email here: sophie.brazell@clarasys.com
Contact us at podcast@clarasys.com
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